shmoo2 said:
Spell Penetration was already an extra feat for the Evoker. I gave the Conjurer no specific boost feats at all. The Evoker needs even MORE to be competitive with the Orbs?
No, the Evoker needs SP and GSP to function competently in his job as area nuker, whether orbs exist or not.
They are using Cold because they know the Devils are immune to Fire and Acid, and also have Electricity Resistance 10. Cold is actually a pretty good choice.
Ah, didn't check the stats. It doesn't change that the devils are a bad choice bacause while they're closer to a fair trade, they're still weighted in favor of orbs.
Now you are rejecting this one, based on the opponents having Energy Resistance and SR.
Lots of fence post moving, again.
No posts have moved. I'm still wanting a fair example. The ones given aren't fair.
Also, the elder earth elementals are CR 11. One of the points of the high-powered-ness of orb spells (at high level) is that almost everything at say, CR 15+ has SR and multiple energy resistances.
I gave 4 CR 11s because that's what an ECL 15 encounter would be. I also don't have Complete Arcane with me. I'd originally wanted to use Elemental Monoliths.
If evokers are only balanced in encounters with multiple high touch AC, low SR, low Energy Resistance opponents (Air Elementals?) then I think the overpowered-ness of orbs is evident.
Who said anything about only? I gave the earth elementals as an example that's on the opposite end of the "fairness" scale from the dragon example. I then went on to state what a truly fair example would require.
This seems to be symptomatic of a number of posts you've made in this thread. Too lazy to do any work but remaining contrarian about the position.
Too lazy? You mean like the people that dismissed my calculations of touch ACs out of hand? I'm sorry, but I'm not going to believe numbers some random Joe on the internet throws out without seeing the work. If it means I'm too lazy, that's fine by me.
Unless you have anything substantive to say, it seems as if this thread is drawing to an end of effective debate and I'm inclined to close it before tempers get frayed.
I've said all sorts of substantive things, but as they're on the less popular side of the fence they get dismissed en masse. But as was said several pages back (by me) this thread isn't going anywhere.
Brother MacLaren said:
Well, I was rather hoping to hear a few points of view on orbs vs. incorporeal -- are they magical attacks or are they not -- but that's just a minor point.
The rules are very clear that the orbs are nonmagical attacks, just like all other instantaneous conjurations. If you allow orbs to hit incorporeal creatures, you also have to allow swords created via conjuration to hit incoporeal creatures.
IcyCool said:
I'd like to see some actual numbers from the pro-orb folks (actual calculations or hard evidence, not something you made up please).
If that isn't forthcoming, then I can't really see what else there is to talk about.
I was going to post numbers with my elementals, but had a brain fart trying to remember the formula for expected damage with a save for half spell that allows SR. IF someone will be kind enough to post that I'll happily dig around fora few EL 15 encounters that orbs are decent in but AoEs rule.
Go back to the post of mine that you quoted (558) and read past the part you quoted--I already mentioned that I knew someone would say that, and I preemptively told you why it is irrelevant.
