No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?
- Thread starter Matrix Sorcica
- Start date
You're right it would be the anti-orb advocate's fault for using a creature with a touch AC half that of a gelatinous cube in their key example.hong said:
Nevermind that I already found two very reasonable ways to shut down the conjurer even with the example given. It's just silly to put forth such a ridiculous encounter in the first place.
Notmousse said:
One uses the tool appropriate to the task at hand.
Clearly you must approve of a [feat|spell|item] that lets you kill undead with one hit from a toothpick, for the low, low price of [1st character level|1st spell level|100 gp]. After all, this is easily handled by the strategem of never using undead.
Are you suggesting that a super-tough monster managing to fend off a couple of wizards 9 CRs below its level actually proves anything?
Notmousse said:
You're right- the single huge dragon encounter is biased against the evocations, and towards the orbs.
Ok, let's stack the deck against the Orbs instead. (I'll try and show all my math.)
We'll pick an appropriate CR for 15th level PCs- CR 16 would be a big, but not huge encounter.
Now we'll choose the CR 16 monster from the MM with the _highest_ touch AC. It's the Cornugon Devil with touch AC of 16. It also has SR 28, Fortitude and Reflex saves of +16, and Cold Resistance 10.
We'll give both PCs 16 Dex (including a +2 item) and a 22 Int (25 pt buy: starting 15, 3 boosts; +4 item).
Since this isn't a huge encounter, the casters don't use their 8th level spells. They both toss a 7th level spell, Maximized versions of Orb of Cold or Cone of Cold.
Connie does:
Ranged attack bonus of +10 (+7 BAB +3 Dex) means she hits on a 6 or higher or 75% of the time.
Average damage: 15*6 = 90(*0.75)= 67.5
-10 for cold resitance
= 57.5 hp. (11.25% of the time, the devil will be blinded.)
Evan does:
Caster level of +17 (we'll even give Evan Spell Penetration to help him) means he succeeds vs. SR on an 11 or higher, or 50% of the time. Reflex DC is 20 (lvl 4 spell +6 Int). The devil succeeds on a 4 or higher, or 85% of the time.
Average damage: 15*6 = 90(*0.50)= 45(*0.15+0.5*0.85)= 25.875
-10 for cold resitance
= 15.875 hp.
But Evocations are used against multiple opponents! let's cluster 4 Cornugons within the Area of Effect:
15.875*4 for AofE on all the devils =
63.5 hp!
That's only 6hp more than Connie (+10.4%). And she has an 11% chance to blind.
In other words, even when we stack the deck for the Evocation user [High touch AC, Spell Penetration feat vs. no specific feat for Connie, 4 opponents] it comes out pretty even.
Almost any other encounter than this one will get worse for the Evocation spell up to the high CR dragon encounters Rystil has brought forth.
That's why the orbs seem broken to me.
Rystil Arden
First Post
shmoo2 said:
Also, of note, I would MUCH rather do 57.5 to one cornugon than 15.875 to 4 of them in most situations. Thanks for doing the math.
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Rystil Arden said:
Yeah, especially considering they have Fast Healing 5. 20 pts of Evan's damage is gone next round- while only 5 is taken off Connie's total.
Additionally, I just noticed that Cone of Cold is a 5th level spell.
So all of above, with Evan using an 8th level slot while Connie uses a 7th.
If Evan merely Empowers his Cone of Cold:
Evan does:
Caster level of +17 (we'll even give Evan Spell Penetration to help him) means he succeeds vs. SR on an 11 or higher, or 50% of the time. Reflex DC is 20 (lvl 4 spell +6 Int). The devil succeeds on a 4 or higher, or 85% of the time.
Average damage: 15*3.5*1.5 = 78.75(*0.50)= 39.375(*0.15+0.5*0.85)= 22.640625
-10 for cold resitance
= 12.640625 hp.
against the 4 Cornugons that's
12.640625*4 for AofE on all the devils =
50.5625 hp!
or 7 points LESS than Connie, even with an extra feat, and multiple opponents and with high touch AC!
Rystil Arden
First Post
Yep.
Notably, they do have better SR for their CR than the dragons did (I thought dragons weren't too bad an example for the Evoker for that reason, but it seems some people didn't agree). I imagine someone will point out that having SR means they aren't "the best" for Evokers, but I think you chose excellently--after all, if the proposed nerf is to make the Orbs SR: Yes, then against creatures with no SR, the Orbs wouldn't actually be changed at all and would seem the same either way. Thus, the question is irrelevant unless the example creature has SR, since the nerf wouldn't weaken the orbs against non-SR creatures (so if they aren't overpowered when the monster has no SR, who cares!).
Notably, they do have better SR for their CR than the dragons did (I thought dragons weren't too bad an example for the Evoker for that reason, but it seems some people didn't agree). I imagine someone will point out that having SR means they aren't "the best" for Evokers, but I think you chose excellently--after all, if the proposed nerf is to make the Orbs SR: Yes, then against creatures with no SR, the Orbs wouldn't actually be changed at all and would seem the same either way. Thus, the question is irrelevant unless the example creature has SR, since the nerf wouldn't weaken the orbs against non-SR creatures (so if they aren't overpowered when the monster has no SR, who cares!).
JiffyPopTart
Bree-Yark
shmoo2 said:
I like the scenario and the math. I think you didn't go with extremes, you picked some basic easy to follow choices.
My question would then be....shouldn't an evoker burning a 7th (or 8th as someone pointed out) level spell be doing more than 16hp worth of damage against a monster that he is favorably paired up with?
I would vote...yes. Which goes back to supporting my stand that the orb spell in this example seems reasonable and not overpowered.
DS
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I guess I'll be responding to other posters from now on.Similar Threads
