No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Fieari]

I was feeling a bit bored so I checked the average regular AC vs. average touch AC of the Epic monsters in the SRD

Average regular AC:47.41 (highest AC 106, lowest 0)
Average touch AC:19.75 (highest 50, lowest 0)

I have a very difficult time believing that the average touch AC in the regular MM's is twice as high as the epic level handbook - and even if by some chance it is it must be only because of 1 or 2 ridiculous outliers.

Other interesting point - because most epic monsters have ridiculous ACs, ridiculous SRs but are usually not met in large groups and for the most part have reasonable touch AC's the orb spells would be disproportionally powerful in an epic game - especially if you researched epic "higher damage" versions.

Part of it is because the MM has many more lower level creatures than higher level ones... after all, you can always add class levels or templates to low CR things, but it's harder to go the reverse route. The epic SRD is only going to have high level stuff, most of which is going to have sufficient dexterity to have a decent touch AC, not to speak of deflection bonuses, which are more common at higher levels. The sub-epic creatures with such things are few and far between, outliers. The epic ones are more or less the norm.

And there's no need to research an epic version of the orbs. Metamagic extends above level 9, after all, with feats.

 

[two]

yuck

That's not an opinion it's a fiction caused by an attempt to state something that isn't true as a fact.

If it can be proven true or false it falls outside the realm of opinion.

Wow, how tawdry. So you claim that somebody's opinion isn't really an opinion if it is not true (i.e. not a "fact")?

I'm sure you don't really mean this.

In my opinion, this is the lamest comeback ever. Oh, nuts. "This is the lamest comeback ever" is not proveable as a "fact" so I can't really have that opinion (is "this is the lamest comeback ever" a fact or not? who says so?).

All you are doing with this shoddy bit of sleight-of-hand is move the discussion from "your opinion is wrong" to a truth debate about the stated opinion (because if the truth state is negative it can't be an opinion it is, rather, a fiction).

Not only is this not helpful, it makes no sense in the real world. People have opinions that often run counter to "the facts" as most people see "the facts" and sometimes they even die because of their opinons (which run into "the facts" in a bloody way).

On the other hand, some people have opinions that run counter to "the facts" which are, in fact, correct...but we only recognize it a hundred years later.

Honestly, get a grip. It is perfectly valid, and in fact necessary, to allow that a teenager might opine: "Brittney Spears the best singer in the world ever bar none since the beginning of time." It is a valid opinion in the sense that it is well-formed, and we understand what they are talking about, and is not trivially disproveable (which a claim such as "the sky is hard as a rock" could be). It is also an opinion that makes a claim which is false and should be (and is) recognized as such. What you do when confronted by such opinions is roll your eyes, bite your tongue, and wait for them to grow up (and they do, eventually).

Surely you don't think all claims are equal? Goodness!

 

[James McMurray]

No, what I mean is that if something can be proven to be either true or false, it isn't an opinion. Thus, "this is the lamest comeback ever" is an opnion, because lame (in that usage) is a subjective adjective and hence not provable. Likewise with your Brittney Spears example: the claim is neither true nor false in a provable sense because "greatest" is another subjective term (again in that usage, greatest and lame aren't always subjective, such as "greatest common denominator" or "lame because his leg is busted").

Why would you jump from me pointing out definitions of words to thinking I believe all claims to be equal?

 

[KarinsDad]

No, what I mean is that if something can be proven to be either true or false, it isn't an opinion.

It can be proven true that the average touch AC in the SRD is ~10.5 and 93+% of creatures there have touch AC 14 or less.

Hence, it isn't opinion.

That's for supporting my POV.


Btw, the reason touch ACs are slightly lower than people might expect in the SRD is due to creatures like Dragons and Oozes.

Black  12, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6
Blue   11, 10, 10,  9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6
Green  11, 10, 10,  9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6
Red    10,  9,  9,  9, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6, 6, 2
White  12, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6
Brass  12, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6
Bronze 11, 10, 10,  9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6
Copper 12, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6
Gold   10,  9,  9,  9, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 6, 2, 2
Silver 11, 10, 10,  9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 6, 6, 2

Dragon touch ACs account for 120 touch ACs out of ~529 or over 22.5%.

The average Dragon touch AC is ~8.18. From that it can be calculated that the non-Dragon creatures have an average touch AC of ~11.18 (since the overall average touch AC is ~10.5). Dragons are 3 touch AC lower than non-Dragon creatures on average and pull down the overall average by almost 0.7.

PS. Feel free to double check my facts at any time. Jump in and quote some real data.

 

[Notmousse]

Looks like you and I agree on that--see my simultaneous post

Scarey, huh?

However, even if you only consider the front and not the back, that still requires a highly-improbable three-dimensional hemisphere of allies who are positioned exactly right so that you don't have any space to attack.

Yeah, but going 3D always gives me a headache on the map. Not the least of which is finding a die to determine random direction, that's what a D26 if you count all the permutations of 'down' too?

 

[shmoo2]

Orb spells also make the SC "Ray of Deanimation" spell useless. If the Ray is balanced, the orbs should not be.

Ray of Deanimation is a level 4 spell- ranged touch attack for 1d6/level [max 15d6] at close range, no save, no SR to one construct. It presumably has been balanced because it targets only constructs. A spell caster could take that spell to fight golems.
OR
take an Orb spell which is also a level 4 spell- ranged touch attack for 1d6/level [max 15d6] at close range, no save, no SR AND can be used against any type of creature, AND has an additional effect on top of the damage.

 

[Notmousse]

How should a *character* have the slightest clue of what CR a monster is without metagaming?

Gather Information, bardic knowledge, and plain old asking 'So, I hear there's a dragon nearby, how's that working out for you?' in this particular case. At 15th level you may well be legendary characters yourselves (campaign dependant I know), sung of by bards as legends in your own time, but almost certainly are there going to be legends about the insanely scarey monster that's been gathering untold riches over the last millenia.

*Players* shouldn't even know what CR a monster is.

While I agree they shouldn't be referencing the MM at the table, I'm sure that they may have an idea something's up when the monster is a size larger than it should be for an even challenge. Or when the GM cackles insanely as he whips out a mini (maxi more like it) that costs more than the core rules.

 

[shmoo2]

Therefor, their balance comes down partly to a matter of campaign style. In Age of Worms they're decent. In SCAP (which I assume means Shattered City?) they're da bomb.

SCAP = Shackled City

I think your data actually showed the orbs to be better than decent even in the AoW.
'Orbs optimal' encounters with 1-3 Opponents: 44/74 = 59.5%
'AoE optimal' encounters with 5+ opponents: 21/74 = 28%

That's a pretty good ratio.

 

[Notmousse]

Ah. Since this is "obscenely prejudicial", maybe the dragon should be 12 CRs higher instead. That should be enough for a fair fight. Rystil, care to think up a scenario?

Or maybe it shouldn't be against a single monster with SR and practically nill (2 for a GWRD) touch AC?

 

[hong]

Or maybe it shouldn't be against a single monster with SR and practically nill (2 for a GWRD) touch AC?

It's not the wizard's fault it has SR and crap touch AC.