No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[Diirk]

That's not an opinion it's a fiction caused by an attempt to state something that isn't true as a fact.

If it can be proven true or false it falls outside the realm of opinion.

Well, unless he was speaking metaphorically

 

[Fieari]

Here's an opinion: Evocations should do more immediate and direct damage per spell level than any other school of magic.

Here's a fact: Orb spells do more immediate and direct damage per spell level than any other spell in the game. They are not evocations.

Feel free to disagree with the opinion. You can't disagree with the fact without demonstrating it clearly false.

 

[IanB]

Here's an opinion: Evocations should do more immediate and direct damage per spell level than any other school of magic.

Here's a fact: Orb spells do more immediate and direct damage per spell level than any other spell in the game. They are not evocations.

Feel free to disagree with the opinion. You can't disagree with the fact without demonstrating it clearly false.

Scorching ray's max of 12d6 as a 2nd level evocation (vs. 15d6 for a 4th level spell) would seem to satisfy the conditions for disproving your fact.

 

[Fieari]

Feel free to amend my fact with "Assuming you are fighting foes with CR appropriate defenses up, such as reasonable energy resistance, SR, and so forth".

 

[James McMurray]

There are plenty of CR 12 foes with no SR and no fire resistance.

 

[Mort]

I was feeling a bit bored so I checked the average regular AC vs. average touch AC of the Epic monsters in the SRD

Average regular AC:47.41 (highest AC 106, lowest 0)
Average touch AC:19.75 (highest 50, lowest 0)

I have a very difficult time believing that the average touch AC in the regular MM's is twice as high as the epic level handbook - and even if by some chance it is it must be only because of 1 or 2 ridiculous outliers.

Other interesting point - because most epic monsters have ridiculous ACs, ridiculous SRs but are usually not met in large groups and for the most part have reasonable touch AC's the orb spells would be disproportionally powerful in an epic game - especially if you researched epic "higher damage" versions.

 

[IanB]

At this point I'm wondering just how many people are going to misinterpret your touch AC post as an actual claim, James...

 

[Mort]

At this point I'm wondering just how many people are going to misinterpret your touch AC post as an actual claim, James...

this thread's way too long, I just saw the quote and got curious. It was interesting to see regardless. And it's also interesting to me that the Orb spells would be so effective in an epic game (especially force - which so few (maybe 1) monsters, even epic, have resistance to).

 

[hong]

The example given by the anti-orb side was 15th level mages killing a dragon 9 CR above them. I see no reason why in this already obscenely prejudicial example that the dragon be an oversized pinata.

Ah. Since this is "obscenely prejudicial", maybe the dragon should be 12 CRs higher instead. That should be enough for a fair fight. Rystil, care to think up a scenario?

 

[James McMurray]

The Force Orb has resistance built into, because it deals (at the levels we're talking about) at least 5 points less damage than the rest, 17.5 points less on average, and 30 points less in the most extreme cases. That's before factoring in metamagic, which seems to be a big strike against the orbs for some folks.