No spell resistance vs. Orb spells? Why?

[two]

Huh?

..... You can really only supply an opinion. No matter how much math you provide, or how many builds or scenarios you pose for or against the orb spells, the end result is that you are just supporting an opinion.

Isn't this really basic philosophical stuff right here?

Obviously opinions can be wrong: flat out wrong.

"It is my opinion that the nation of Germany, last week, turned into a clump of seaweed."

That's an interesting opinion. You can certainly state it. And it is obviously - and overwhelmingly - wrong.

Some opinions are right. Some are wrong. Most are in the middle.

Now, when you are talking about a subjective judgement ("The best movie ever made was Debbie Does Dallas") your opinion is just that: an opinion, and can't be "wrong."

That does not mean you can or should respect all opinions (weight them all) the same amount. Somebody who loves "Debbie Does Dallas" that much I feel confident... ignoring their judgment RE: movie quality. And I am not "wrong" to do so - in fact, it is sensible to do so.

The power level of the Orb spells, in D&D, from a game designer perspective, is not a purely "subjective" determination. It might work well in your campaign; that does not mean it is balanced in D&D as a whole. That is why math and various builds are helpful. They get us away from the specific ("Oh my god, the orbs killed everything in my campaign! Oh my god, the orbs were useless in my campaign!") and into a more general discussion.

Anything, however crazy powerful, can be "balanced" in a given campaign. That's trivially true, and meaningless.

Are the Orbs too powerful in the majority of campaigns? In 90 out of 100 campaigns? In a series of adventures?

How do you answer this question? Hint: You don't talk about your personal experience with the spell. You simply must step back and see the big picture.

 

[evilbob]

New idea: supply both casters with greater rods of maximize! (They cost 121k for a character with ~200k wealth, but why not!)

Now the two mages can kill the dragon in one round, since they'll be doing a maximized, admixtured orb of cold, cold for 90 * 2 * 1.5 = 270 + quickened, maximized orb of cold for 90 * 1.5 = 135, for a total of 405 damage, no save, no SR, 5% chance to miss. Two of those guys can kill a CR 24 dragon in just 1 round!

However, the plan still fails because the orb spells have a range of "short" and right as they get to within range (60') the dragon breathes on them. Ah well.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Why I don't buy the 15th level mage walking into a dragon's lair and killing it. A spell or a feat completely shut down the orb specialist. Scintilating Scales, or Maximize Breath.
The first makes it nearly impossible (5% in most cases) to hit the dragon, the latter obliterates the mages, (and I believe many 15th level characters).

Was Scintillating Scales changed in the Spell Compendium? Using the version from Draconomicon, it's +Con bonus as a deflection bonus, and half of that bonus lost from natural armor bonus. For a great red wyrm, that's +10 deflection, bringing touch AC from 2 to 12. Assuming a +7 BAB and a +2 Dex, your typical 15th-level caster will have a 90% chance to hit, not 5%.

 

[jensun]

Was Scintillating Scales changed in the Spell Compendium?

Yes. IIRC it basicly turns the NA bonus into a deflection one.

 

[Notmousse]

[Quickened] True Strike will reverse this.

But it also takes a good portion of damage away by only allowing the mage to throw one orb.

Not to say that having Scintilating Scales won't make him harder to kill, but rather that it won't necessarily completely shut the orb specialist down.

The dragon simply needs to survive the first round to destroy the mage. Unless the mage gets first attack the dragon breaths, or crushes the mage (and 'party'), or full attacks the mage (and 'party') killing the mages and at least crippling any others.

If it is the case that this feat pwn3s all 15th level characters, how does it inform our opinion of the brokeness of Orbs?

In the fact that the example mages aren't capable of killing cr +9 dragons as was proposed in the example.

 

[Notmousse]

Was Scintillating Scales changed in the Spell Compendium?

Yes it was. When I looked over the Draconomicon version I noticed the difference and was going to note it, but you beat me to the punch.

It now changes your natural armor bonus to a deflection armor bonus.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Yes it was. When I looked over the Draconomicon version I noticed the difference and was going to note it, but you beat me to the punch.

It now changes your natural armor bonus to a deflection armor bonus.

That's INSANELY powerful. Makes dragons effectively immune to touch attacks, which were their most significant weakness before (not just vs. orbs, but also swarms of shadows or stirges). What level spell is it? I imagine that even at 9th level it would STILL be a "must-have" for dragons.

[Edit: Okay, I see one slight flaw in using this spell, the feat Pierce Magical Protection. With Scintillating Scales, that becomes a must-have for dragonslayers.]

 

[Notmousse]

With True Strike it's still possible to hit the dragon, just much less likely to do so.

BTW my take is that dragons were meant to be insanely powerful, what with being in the name of the game and all.

 

[Plane Sailing]

[Edit: Okay, I see one slight flaw in using this spell, the feat Pierce Magical Protection. With Scintillating Scales, that becomes a must-have for dragonslayers.]

It sounds symptomatic of a rampant arms-race effect that seems to have happened with 3.5e supplments.

It's funny - we got hold of and used a lot of 3.0 supplements, but we've not touched any of the 3.5 supplements at all. I think that it may be because the latter seem rather more inclined towards the arms race effect.

"Orbs are a problem! Buff up 'scintillating scales'!"
"scintillating scales are now a problem! introduce Pierce Magical Protection"
etc.
etc.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

BTW my take is that dragons were meant to be insanely powerful, what with being in the name of the game and all.

Well, true, and most dragons are heavily over-powered for their CR already (except whites, in my experience, which are frustrating but not that deadly). Very few weaknesses.

I was more referring to the power level of this particular spell and trying to determine at what level it would NOT be so good that every dragon would take it.