Non-Core Class Survivor Spin-off: Pro-psionics or anti-psionics

[Presto2112]

This sums it up quite nicely.

http://www.llbbl.com/data/RPG-motivational/page_10.htm

Fourth row, first one.

I tried linking directly, but it didn't work for some reason.

 

[Mycanid]

This sums it up quite nicely.

Umm ... is the link broken?

 

[Enforcer]

This sums it up quite nicely.

I got a 404 error from the above.

As for psionics not existing in fantasy, I agree. With only a few exceptions like Dark Sun, the Deryni (spelling? I've never read them) series, and Robin Hobb's books (The Skill and The Wit are both far more psionic than magical in my opinion), fantasy doesn't include psionics as a rule.

That doesn't mean it can't work in D&D, as Eberron proves. But again, I don't see what the fuss is about. Don't like psionics? Don't use 'em. Like psionics? Use 'em. It's that simple.

 

[Cadfan]

I'm anti.

I fear I may have started the fight in the other thread. I pointed out that because people who vote against the psion and the psychic warrior do so for the same reasons, the vote was getting split, reducing the likelihood that either would lose in any given round. I predicted that once one went down, the other would instantly follow because the vote splitting factor would cease to exist.

I stopped following the thread after that though, so I'm sorry if I messed up the thread.

That said, psionics blows. It's a system where you can cast top powered "spells" continually until you completely run out of power points. In addition, because so many "spells" are augmentable, it creates a system where the player has a large number of what are very nearly top level spells, and can choose to cast them continually.

The result is, the character is overpowered if he chooses to use top level powers optimally selected from a large number of choices. And then he runs out of power points, after which he's underpowered because he's, well, worthless.

I think a psionic power point system could be created that didn't suck, but this isn't it. A good system would need to accept that versatility is the same thing as power, and that a system that encourages the use of nothing but fully augmented powers is just a way to encourage the same sort of obnoxiousness you get from normal magic, except to a greater extreme.

Oh yeah, and the pro-psionics people don't help any either. If you want to convince me that a system is balanced, don't begin with "its not as broken as GATE, is it??? You can use that for nearly infinite wishes!!!"

I don't allow that in my gameworlds. New argument please.

 

[blargney the second]

It sounds like the two main reasons for psi-hate are:

1) It's not fantasy, according to certain definitions of fantasy.
2) The system was once upon a time not very well implemented in D&D.

I can understand the first one. Different strokes for different folks and all that. Personally, I always thought the magic in the Belgariad was more like psionics than spells, especially with the big mental battles. As a consequence, I don't experience cognitive dissonance with psionics in fantasy.

The second one seems... prejudiced. Not in the racist sense, but in the judgement without verification of facts sense. Things have changed a lot since the broken days, and definitely for the better. *shrug*

-blarg

 

[rounser]

1) It's not fantasy, according to certain definitions of fantasy.
2) The system was once upon a time not very well implemented in D&D.

3) It's usually redundant in a world which already has magic.

As a consequence, I don't experience cognitive dissonance with psionics in fantasy.

Referring to cognitive dissonance is just another way of saying someone is illogical and delusional. Pretending your taste is objective and anyone who disagrees with you is deluded brings up 4:

4) The play style of a lot of people who tend to be psionics enthusiasts. IME they tend to be either:

a) Jaded with magic, which begs the question as to why they're still playing D&D.​

b) Want something that says "look at me, I'm special" because being a wizard isn't rare enough.​

c) Looking for some workaround to break the rules (a hangover from 1E and 2E psionics, where those unbalanced rules attracted such players...old habits die hard).​

 

[blargney the second]

Psionics is only as redundant in a world with magic as barbarians are in a world with fighters.

Referring to cognitive dissonance is just another way of saying someone is illogical and delusional.

That's putting untrue words in my mouth.
-blarg

 

[Brian Gibbons]

While I haven't been big on it until 3rd edition, I never had much of a flavor problem with it. I suppose it's just that one of the early fantasy series I was attracted to was the Deryni series which had a clear psionics type of "magic" and a clear sorcery type of "magic" in the same fantasy world. I never felt a science fiction feel to the world, so I never had that prejudice.

Mentalists exist in fantasy. Mind-based magic exists. Wizards who exert their energy through pure act of will certainly exist.

D&D-style psionics does not.

Find me a decent fantasy novel which has a wizard side-by-side with something called a psychometabolist and we can talk.

The pseudo-science nonsense is core to D&D psionics. Take away all of the objectionable flavor and the duplication of the core systems, and what you're left with is just a type of sorcerer, and a superior one at that. I don't think anyone would have an objection to the sorcerer you'd have left over, but you have to scrape a lot of flavor and mechanics away to get there.

 

[Glyfair]

Find me a decent fantasy novel which has a wizard side-by-side with something called a psychometabolist and we can talk.

Bah. I think you are too hung up on names. If the names bother you, change them. I've seen a few novels with something like a wizard next to something like a psychometabolist, they just aren't called that.

I wonder if it's the 2E "we'll do the flavor for you" that's created this need to have the flavor built into the system/creature rather than adding or modifying it youself.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

1) they think it's too much like sci-fi, or that its flavor is to pseudo-scientific;

2) they don't think it has any place in a medieval fantasy RPG, because it has no significant basis in European myth and legend, for the same reasons such folks dislike oriental classes like the monk;

3) they believe that the psionics rules are too broken and unbalanced, to the point of not even giving them a fair chance in the first place, in some cases just because of bad experiences with previous editions of the rules;

4) they don't want to learn a new sub-system, no matter how much it is or isn't like the core spellcasting rules, and they think it's just too complicated on top of already having to remember the combat rules and spellcasting rules;

and/or 5) they don't like the flavor of psionics as it stands right now, and can't be bothered to just accept an alternate description of the powers and their origins, like one of the several alternate flavors of psionics that have been used by lots of groups already, and even discussed on the forums occasionally.

My hat of psyonic know no limit -- mostly due to 1, 2 and 4.

Though my experience is colored by 1E, where it was overpowered, broken, and nigh-impossible to use, I acknowledge the system has been fixed in 3.5. But I still don't care for it, because it doesn't fit my preconception of fantasy. And if you repackage it as "just a different form of magic" by filing off the offensive pseudoscientific names, the crystals, etc -- then why should I learn a separate system for slightly different-flavored magic? For the record, I also don't care for Incarnum or the other "alternate" magic systems. One magic system is good enough for me.