• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Non-Core Class Survivor Spin-off: Pro-psionics or anti-psionics

How do you feel about psionics?

  • I'm pro-psionics!

    Votes: 90 50.3%
  • I'm anti-psionics!

    Votes: 66 36.9%
  • Keep me out of this one!

    Votes: 23 12.8%

Glyfair

Explorer
Olgar Shiverstone said:
Though my experience is colored by 1E, where it was overpowered, broken, and nigh-impossible to use, I acknowledge the system has been fixed in 3.5.

I will say that, as much as AD&D psionics deserves the bad rap it's gotten, it was balanced as written. However, it was "AD&D balanced." Sort of like the fact that the cool special abilities of non-humans were "balanced" by limiting them to certain levels (it's OK to be more powerful at 1st level, because you are useless when humans are at 18th level).

Supposedly the DM was supposed to check for random psionic encounters randomly, when psionics were used. The table for wandering monsters included things like Demon Princes. So, it was balanced being psionic because using your powers had a reasonable shot of causing a random encounter of something a low level PC would have no chance against (and Demon Princes are just the top of the food chain on that list).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Glyfair said:
"AD&D balanced."

= unbalanced.

But I hear you. ;)

1E psionics were fairly easy to ignore -- something I appreciate from 3E/3.5, which has kept them out of the core rulebooks. I cringe at every suggestion that they be put into the core (arguments about their presence in the SRD notwithstanding -- I'm talking about core rulebooks, not the d20 SRD). One of the turnoffs to me about Eberron has been the assumption of psionics, because I feel it is much easier to add psionics to a setting than to excise them. But we do have Greyhawk and FR (and tons of other settings) that don't have psionic assumptions, so it is only fair to throw psionics fans a bone.
 



was

Adventurer
Glyfair said:
Nope, it definitely started by the someone from the anti-psionic group suggesting they gang up on one psionics class. That caused the pro-psionics group to decide to gang up on a class to push it over the psi class the other faction chose..

-While I've never been a fan of psionics, I wouldn't oppose them being added to the core classes. I just don't think that they are the most deserving of those remaining on the list.

-Having read that other post, however, I do believe that you are mistaken. The very first poster on the thread implored fans of psionics to ban together and save the psion class. If I might borrow the quote:

"All pro-psionics coalition members: vote scout! Save the psion!"

....was the sentiment that was expressed first
 

Angel Tarragon

Dawn Dragon
Pro psionics. The primary world I use is a homebrew and there is a vast area of land dominated by reptilian creatures and scalyfolk. It is a psionics heavy area and most creatures from it have some limited form of psi powers, whether they have levels in psi classes or not.
 

Glyfair

Explorer
was said:
-Having read that other post, however, I do believe that you are mistaken. The very first poster on the thread implored fans of psionics to ban together and save the psion class. If I might borrow the quote:

"All pro-psionics coalition members: vote scout! Save the psion!"

....was the sentiment that was expressed first
The most recent thread, yes. Through the 14 of them? No, it was the anti-psionics crowd first. That caused the pro-psionics crowd to push banding together to counter this movement (if indeed, it was a movement).
 

Glyfair

Explorer
Olgar Shiverstone said:
= unbalanced.
I wouldn't go that far. Maybe "badly balanced."

AD&D was a lot of things, balanced wasn't really one of them. When Gary used to wax about game balance, it would bring up things like magic-users are balanced even though they are very powerful at high levels because they die a lot at first level. If the current designers were to make that argument they would be lambasted badly. There were other balancing elements that worked, but you wouldn't hear Gary defend them, because they weren't very controversial.
 

riprock

First Post
fusangite said:
I'm not a fan of psionics for the simple reason that the term damages my suspension of disbelief. The thing that the term "psionics" describes is magic. But by labeling one particular type of magic with a sci-fi term, D&D becomes less generically coherent.
... D&D presents quite enough challenges to suspending disbelief without adding this.



D&D was pretty incoherent from the start. Heck, even Chainmail didn't try for coherence. D&D's white box has
There should be no "natural laws" which are certain. Space could be passable
because it is filled with breathable air. On the other hand the stars could be tiny
lights only a few hundred miles away. Some areas of land could be gates into
other worlds, dimensions, times, or whatever. Mars is given in these rules, but
some other fantastic world or setting could be equally as possible. This function
is up to the referee...

--p24, Vol III

Extraordinary mind powers are absolutely appropriate to pseudo-medieval fantasy, IMHO.

They can't be much less coherent than the following, from Greyhawk, p.61:
A box of animal crackers which will spring to life when grasped; for example a bear
might dump a bowl of porridge on the player's head, a giant fox might demand a
bunch of grapes or else he'll attack, a lion will attack unless a thorn in his paw is
removed, and so on. At least one of the animals will give some treasure or aid of
some sort.
Rooms which emit rays or gases which cause unexpected reactions or force players entering
to do things they do not necessarily desire to do, i.e. a room which causes all
who enter to wish to attack each other, a room of greed, a geas room, a room which
causes a sex to change, a cursed room, etc.
Devices which have numbers of levers, buttons, dials or whatever; and the movement of
each will cause a different thing to happen. Typical examples of results: 1) damage to
mover; 2) change alignment; 3) become another class; 4) become a monster; 5) lose a
level; 6) teleported elsewhere; 7) release various missiles which come out or down
within a certain area; 8) open pits or slides; 9) give various treasures; 10) give a magic
item; and 11) give some bonus to experience or abilities.
There are many more possibilities.
Door which will open only for a certain class of player or to one alignment.
Doors which will open only for monsters.
Doors which will open to allow traffic into an area but not out of it.

I read accounts of medieval Sufis and folks like Roger Bacon and it sounds a *lot* more like psionics than like Vancean magic. Vancean worlds are not very medieval -- they are heavily sci-fi. (Moorcock's Elric/Count Brass stories are almost as sci-fi, but not quite.)

I love Jack Vance and everything he wrote. But he was writing a very specific critique of the modern world of 1950 with "The Dying Earth" and "Rhialto the Magnificent." (Both of those stories incorporated quite a few sci-fi elements.) Jack Vance had no problem making great stories with psionics.

I love AD&D. But AD&D does not do justice to Vance. If it did, every wizard would *not* start with magic missile -- 90% of wizards would have pet spirits to do their combat for them, just like Rhialto.

One of the reasons that Gygax and Arneson must be counted as geniuses is that they invented a completely new genre of fantasy. It has taken over the culture, and we *think* it's the way fantasy has always been, but in fact, it's a *recent* genre.

I love the idea of psionics. I hate the flavor text of 3.x, and the rules of just about every edition.

Full disclosure:
I had a lot of fun with psionics in AD&D, because I was too young to be ashamed of Monty Haul:
psionics.jpg
 

fusangite

First Post
riprock said:
D&D was pretty incoherent from the start. Heck, even Chainmail didn't try for coherence. D&D's white box has
Hence my statement in the post you quoted,
me said:
I'm not a fan of psionics for the simple reason that the term damages my suspension of disbelief. The thing that the term "psionics" describes is magic. But by labeling one particular type of magic with a sci-fi term, D&D becomes less generically coherent... D&D presents quite enough challenges to suspending disbelief without adding this.
As I said, "less generically coherent." I have no dispute with your statement that the game already contains a bunch of genre inconsistencies. I don't like most of them.
riprock said:
Extraordinary mind powers are absolutely appropriate to pseudo-medieval fantasy, IMHO.
Hence my statement
me said:
The actual powers of psionics I have no dispute with; indeed, the system for running them is superior to the spells system and, in my view, a legitimate direction to send all D&D magic in the event of a fourth edition... My gripe is entirely with the term...
riprock said:
I read accounts of medieval Sufis and folks like Roger Bacon and it sounds a *lot* more like psionics than like Vancean magic.
I totally agree with this.
One of the reasons that Gygax and Arneson must be counted as geniuses is that they invented a completely new genre of fantasy.
Some parts of their project worked better than others. D&D is an evolving game; it's not like the US Constitution where the founders have some kind of permanent defining claim. Parts of original D&D didn't work and undermined my suspension of disbelief. Fortunately, thanks to the game's increasing modularity, I can take or leave various peripheral parts.
It has taken over the culture, and we *think* it's the way fantasy has always been, but in fact, it's a *recent* genre.
What has that got to do with anything? I'm telling you what interferes with my suspension of disbelief, and that of many other gamers, and why. You can't somehow prove that psionics shouldn't undermine my suspension of disbelief. That's not how suspension of disbelief works.
I love the idea of psionics. I hate the flavor text of 3.x, and the rules of just about every edition.
Right. More power to you. I'm not saying why other people shouldn't like psionics, just explaining why I don't.
 

Remove ads

Top