non switchers: what can wotc do to win you back?

[TheNovaLord]

. So, in order for WotC to win me back as a customer they need to do one simple thing: Republish DragonQuest 2nd Edition. If they did this, I would be a happy camper and would buy several copies.

everyone complains about editons . TSR killed my fav game in 1983?

i too, and my friends, would buy many copies....maybe they would need to streamline/improve the skills sytem.

 

[alleynbard]

Nothing that I can think of.

It isn't that I'm angry with Wizards or am being vindictive, it is just that they are now producing a game that I do not find as enjoyable as 3.5/Pathfinder. I also am not a fan of subscription based services. I may still buy a pack of minis every year or so, but aside from that I do not see any of my money going to them.

This is about how I feel.

The only difference is I have run a 4e game for the last 6 months. Our last 4e session will be tomorrow and we will be moving to Pathfinder. I started off liking the game, mostly because prep time was such a breeze. Then as time passed I started to truly doubt the system. Then my players started to express a dislike of the system. It was at that point I realized we really weren't having much fun. The game quickly lost its shine. I guess I am a simulationist at heart. I like Gygaxian Naturalism.

Heck, I even wrote a letter of support to the 4e designers at the height of my excitement. I thought I was sold. But I wasn't. I still stand by that letter. My feelings at the time were legitimate. I was still rather new to 4e and I was excited about the new shiny game. It just so happens I came to change my mind. But it doesn't mean I shifted from supportive to angry. I just feel kind of ambivalent now. I am happy to be going back to 3.5 via Pathfinder.

There are some interesting things about 4e, but it took me awhile to fully realize it wasn't for me. Even when I was most excited about 4e, I had nagging doubts. Not too long ago I swore I would not go back to 3.5. Then I realized my issues with 3.5 had more to do with what WotC did to the game towards the end of its lifespan rather than the system itself. Pathfinder helped wake me up and solidified what I was looking for in a D&D game.

So, I guess I am a "revert". I enjoy 3.5 because I feel it is a fantastic expression of what makes D&D such a fun game. It is apart of a heritage that I grew up with and 4e doesn't illicit the same wonder.

At this point, Wizards would not likely win me back as a customer. Even if they started producing more 3e material (which is not going to happen) I wouldn't go back. They really destroyed that game with their endless splats and pointless revisions. I might pick up the occasional single mini, mostly creatures that are difficult to find through other mini companies. I generally prefer painted minis to plastic (though I do have a ton of plastic minis) so even that is an uphill battle.

I only regret we didn't see a revival of settings like Dark Sun, Planescape, and Birthright during the 3e era. I really would have been happy to see that.

 

[Aus_Snow]

I only regret we didn't see a revival of settings like Dark Sun, Planescape, and Birthright during the 3e era. I really would have been happy to see that.

I have a feeling this is not what you had in mind, but. . .

Dark Sun, Planescape, Birthright.

 

[alleynbard]

I have a feeling this is not what you had in mind, but. . .

Dark Sun, Planescape, Birthright.

You're right, not exactly what I was thinking. But I absolutely value those websites. I have used them continuously for my home campaigns.

You know, this makes me think. Perhaps it is better this way. I think the fans have done so much more with those settings than WotC ever could. I find it kind of regrettable that WotC will likely ignore the work done by these fans when they revive Dark Sun. Perhaps not, I have hope.

 

[Ulrick]

Everytime I think of 4e or look at the crisp and barely used 4e books on my shelf, I feel sad.

I've been playing D&D since 1988. D&D was like a friend to me, growing, changing, but still seemed familiar. And we had plenty of memories together. But then one day D&D showed up wearing new cloths. D&D said he was like the same person, but he's gone through some changes. Upon closer look, I didn't really recognize my friend anymore. And his behavior changed too, he became addicted to crunch and video games.

Now D&D and I barely talk. I can't talk to D&D because he won't listen. He says WotC says crunch and video games are good for him. And I keep saying: "No! You need to read more and be creative. Even a few years ago all the crunch wasn't that bad. You were still the creative friend I knew!" But he won't listen. "WotC knows what's best for me," he says and he sits down to play WoW and eat a bag full of crunch. "This is fun. He said. You should try it."

I did, and I don't want to be a crunch and video game addict. "WotC is a bad influence on you, D&D. A really bad influence."

I feel like I've lost a friend to crunch and videogames. D&D is on a downward spiral. I'm afraid he'll become broke and without friends and WotC will just move on to get somebody else hooked, leaving D&D in the gutter.

Maybe its time for an intervention. Paizo?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I know lots of people have sung the praises of True20 and Pathfinder, and I will be investing in those games, but I don't see them as inherently superior to 3.5, just different. There are things they do that I don't care for just like there are things in 3.5 I don't care for.

 

[FoxWander]

Hmm...
I think I should have read thru more of the replies before I put in my votes back when I finished page one. I'd originally put in two options (older edition material and improve DDI) but now that I've read some replies and thought about it some more, I realize the more realistic answer is, sadly, nothing can bring me back. That's because neither of my original options are ever gonna come out of WOTC. The first one just flat out isn't and the latter will certainly not be in the way I'd like- which is DDI with support for older editions- so again, flat out not gonna happen.

I don't want to quote Grymar again, but he hit it pretty much right on the head- I don't have anything against WOTC it's just that they're not producing a version of D&D I want to play. There are aspects of 4E I like, certain rule techniques and mechanics, but overall, to me, it just doesn't feel like D&D anymore.

One of the things I'd have LOVED from WOTC before they switched to 4.0 would have been a consolidated update to the entire 3.5 rules set. A book that combined everything you needed to run and play a 3.5 game, AND that compiled all the various rules tweaks, updates and errata that were published in the plethora of splat books, into one volume. That's what I had hoped the rules compendium was going to be (I mean, it was going to be the last 3.5 book ever published by them- so why not make it a comprehensive capstone book for the system, PLUS they had an excellent example from the past of just that in the original D&D Rules Compendium!! ) but, sadly, that was not the case.

But now I don't have to care about that anymore because Paizo saw where WOTC dropped the ball (imho) and published that very thing. And they improved on it in almost every way (again, imho). So basically what it boils down to is, WOTC doesn't make the D&D I like anymore, but Paizo does. Now if I can only get Paizo to start their own version of the DDI.

 

[aboyd]

I liked 3e/3.5e. I like many of the changes made to 4e, but I do not like it as a whole-- I feel it was a step backward from the innovations and flexibility they provided in 3e.

If they released a Fifth Edition that was more like 3e, with more flexibility in character creation and development, I would certainly be interested and would give it a thorough examination.

I said something similar on rpg.net a month ago, and I was tarred & feathered for it. I'm glad you can say it here.

So, based on the poll results, the one thing that is most likely to get people to play 4e is if you offer them the ability to purchase a $25 PDF vs. paying $25 for an actual book? That's it? That's the primary beef? Given that a) PDFs kind of suck, and b) this issue didn't come up at all until almost a year after 4e came out, this seems like a really lame rational.

It's a bad rationale for not playing 4th, but that's not entirely what this poll is about. I believe that the author of the poll clarified on page three that he was simply asking what it would take to bring people back to WotC as customers, not necessarily 4th edition gamers. Even without his clarification, that's how I interpreted it anyway.

Therefore, you have a bunch of people like me, who checked off the PDF option not because if WotC sold PDFs I would play 4th, but because if WotC sold PDFs I would buy them. It's likely I would buy PDFs of all the Basic & 1st edition modules. I'm suddenly a customer, but not playing 4th.

As soon as WotC focuses again on producing an immersive rpg instead of an highly abstract combat game, either through variant rules or, better, a new edition/game I will look at it.

This. For me, what I need is that any D&D game follow the tagline on the Basic rulebook: "This game requires no gameboard because the action takes place in the player's imagination."

I'm not opposed to battlemats, nor am I opposed to minis. However, the game I just hosted last Saturday was completely off-the-cuff with no maps at all. If I do this in Basic, it's works as intended. Heck, I can even do it in 3.5 edition, and really all that falls by the wayside are attacks of opportunity. But if I try to do this with 4th... blah. I lose tons of elements.

I need a game where the battlemat enhances things and might be fun to use, but is not required. For now, I do 3.5 edition, and usually but not always have a battlemat. It's OK.

 

[Korgoth]

I tried a 4E campaign... I just didn't like it. It does its thing, and that's not a thing I'm interested in. I already play real miniatures games (like Flames of War) so I get my fill of tactical minis combat.

The PDF thing is the other issue. If they want to treat their current customers like thieves, that sucks but I know they're just trying to protect their bottom line. But why pull the Old School PDFs? I assume there was a reason....

If they went back to selling PDFs, that would win me over but it wouldn't make me a 4E player. So I guess best case scenario for me is if they start selling the old PDFs again, and begin publishing a game that I like (which could be reprints of the original books, for example).

 

[haakon1]

What I really want is more 3.5 stuff, preferably set in Greyhawk.

Paizo is closer to providing that, so I always look at their stuff first, and at this point, I'm giving only a cursory look to WotC's covers . . .

I would buy older PDF's if they were available again.