Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

[niklinna]

Are you telling me it’s not a good idea to climb into the mouths of devil faces? But there’s probably treasure in there.

HEY! Spoiler tag please.

But yes, there's definitely treasure in there. Hop right in!

 

[soviet]

I remember it Being A Thing in the D&D of the early to mid 80s to come up with the most fiendish possible deathtraps and such in order to teach those dirty players a lesson. I mean, Tomb of Horrors flat-out dispensed with a lot of saving throws and just outright killed characters who entered certain apertures or touched certain objects. Fortunately, those days have passed.

Well Tomb of Horrors as a tournament module isn't representative of real play.

But I do think that TSR D&D and WotC D&D are fundamentally different games. TSR D&D has players exploring the world with their described actions outside of combat because by and large the rules for such things either don't exist or are inadequate. WotC D&D in defining better rules for exploration, social interaction, trap finding, etc has pushed those experiences away from a described resolution and onto a dice resolution where the details of the effort are redundant and so mostly unsaid. It's a shame IMO.

 

[Thomas Shey]

And Champions.

Well, his internal model of Champions. Its very clear that from seeing Champions Now that's non-trivially afield from how the majority of Champions fans, past or present, see it.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I’ve never understood the hostility towards the term story.

Story needs three things - character, setting and plot.

Now whether these things exist in random tables or the DM’s notes or are created during play, it doesn’t really matter. All rpgs have story. The second you drop a plot hook, you have story. Even if the story doesn’t go anywhere, it’s still a story.

I’m often baffled why people think that story=completed narrative. It doesn’t.

The opposite of story is not sandbox. The opposite of sandbox is linear.

I can tell you why. Because a fair number of GMs and no small number of designers have used "story" as a more complimentary version of "railroad." For many people that's effectively poisoned the well for any other use of it in an RPG context.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well Tomb of Horrors as a tournament module isn't representative of real play.

But I do think that TSR D&D and WotC D&D are fundamentally different games. TSR D&D has players exploring the world with their described actions outside of combat because by and large the rules for such things either don't exist or are inadequate. WotC D&D in defining better rules for exploration, social interaction, trap finding, etc has pushed those experiences away from a described resolution and onto a dice resolution where the details of the effort are redundant and so mostly unsaid. It's a shame IMO.

Given how often the older version added up to "let's see if we can read the GM's mind and/or appeal to his prejudices about the situation at hand" you'll excuse me if I find it hard to have considered that a superior field of play.

 

[niklinna]

Well Tomb of Horrors as a tournament module isn't representative of real play.

Well I bought it off the shelf at B. Dalton, and never played in an RPG tournament of any kind. So they put it out there for "real play" (whatever that is).

But I do think that TSR D&D and WotC D&D are fundamentally different games. TSR D&D has players exploring the world with their described actions outside of combat because by and large the rules for such things either don't exist or are inadequate. WotC D&D in defining better rules for exploration, social interaction, trap finding, etc has pushed those experiences away from a described resolution and onto a dice resolution where the details of the effort are redundant and so mostly unsaid. It's a shame IMO.

Aye, there's a world of difference between "I search under the bunk bed, the mattress, and behind the tapestry" and "I roll find—I got a 17".

True fact: When I got roped into DMing in high school, I ran an adventure in which the players did have to search the old way, and I had put a sweet bespoke (whee!) magic item in a particular place...which they didn't say they looked in. So I said, "Aren't you gonna look under that thing?" I really wanted them to have that sweet bespoke (whee!) magic item. Ah, youth....

 

[Aldarc]

Well I bought it off the shelf at B. Dalton, and never played in an RPG tournament of any kind. So they put it out there for "real play" (whatever that is).

 

[Hussar]

Well Tomb of Horrors as a tournament module isn't representative of real play.
.

This bit here gets to the point I’ve been trying to make.

What is a representative of real play? There are thousands of players who play Adventurer’s League games tens of thousands or more.

There are tens of thousands like me who play online.

There are more tens of thousands who play live. But even then there’s groups that play with only friends. There are groups that met through game clubs or flgs’s

There are groups that play once a month and groups that play for an hour at lunch break.

So what is representative of play?

 

[Aldarc]

I can tell you why. Because a fair number of GMs and no small number of designers have used "story" as a more complimentary version of "railroad." For many people that's effectively poisoned the well for any other use of it in an RPG context.

Yeah, this is one reason why terms like "emergent story" or even "story now" developed. They were reactions against pre-authored TTRPG stories. And various mechanics and tools within both OSR and story game circles were developed (or utilized) to resist pre-authored or imposed stories: e.g., random tables, non-linear dungeons, sandboxes, player-authority over the fiction, meta-currencies, etc.

I don't think that pre-authored stories are inherently bad. My partner prefers video games with story, and they like adventure paths. That's their preference. There is definitely a place for them. However, I also understand how "story" became anathema as a term in various TTRPG communities, and I am definitely sympathetic to their own roleplaying preferences. I have a certain threshold for tolerating railroading in adventure paths, because I understand, for example, that the GM is running an AP and working within that limitation. Some people make APs less linear, but I don't expect every GM to make such adjustments. I am less tolerant, however, when I catch a whiff of the GM is trying to impose their story or railroad player choices/outcomes and they aren't running an AP.

 

[clearstream]

Yeah, this is one reason why terms like "emergent story" or even "story now" developed. They were reactions against pre-authored TTRPG stories. And various mechanics and tools within both OSR and story game circles were developed (or utilized) to resist pre-authored or imposed stories: e.g., random tables, non-linear dungeons, sandboxes, player-authority over the fiction, meta-currencies, etc.

I don't think that pre-authored stories are inherently bad. My partner prefers video games with story, and they like adventure paths. That's their preference. There is definitely a place for them. However, I also understand how "story" became anathema as a term in various TTRPG communities, and I am definitely sympathetic to their own roleplaying preferences. I have a certain threshold for tolerating railroading in adventure paths, because I understand, for example, that the GM is running an AP and working within that limitation. Some people make APs less linear, but I don't expect every GM to make such adjustments. I am less tolerant, however, when I catch a whiff of the GM is trying to impose their story or railroad player choices/outcomes and they aren't running an AP.

To quote myself from another thread, I think that an RPG is that which has at least

1. ongoing authorship of common fiction, through a continuous process of drafting and revising, that all participate in
2. regulatory and constitutive rules

1. is mediated through the technical feature of fictional positioning. Regarding your thoughts, like others I believe 1. is distinct to RPG... it is at the heart of RPG. The distinction you make with story in video games is a good one. What I would modify or add is that I think it is the ongoing authorship that all participate in, that is at the heart of all RPGs.

To the extent that story may be pre-authored in some modes of RPG, we might envision that a draft is presented which is going to be subject to ongoing revision. But the more important point is that no RPG is only that (pre-authored.) My phrasing is consciously inclusive of any value for "all" (i.e. from 1 to N.) Otherwise one could be forced to exclude Ironsworn or Thousand Year Old Vampire from RPGs.

My phrasing is silent on the distribution of authorial power. I believe that is a razor that cuts between different games, and it is not especially helpful (in fact, it is confounding) to suppose that all RPGs are one game. I lean here on a blog post by Vincent Baker. The whiffs you speak of... those folk may well be playing the game they intend to play, and that game is an RPG, but to criticise it by the standards of a different game is going to run into problems. Most likely will be hostile to and disrupt the meaning of that play for that group.