D&D 4E Not going to 4e
- Thread starter Hunter In Darkness
- Start date
lyle.spade
Adventurer
And now we see the pricetags!
What a scam. I just read about the pricetags for the core books on the EnWorld homepage, and my feeling for the real reasons behind 4E is now sunk: it's all about the money, folks.
The current 3.5 books are 29.95 each retail, and 20 on Amazon -- the new price, 35, will mean the Amazon price will be about 24. Last time I checked my math that means about $75 to "upgrade," or more if you don't take free shipping.
Huh. Yeah. No.
Savage Worlds is $10, and it plays faster. WOTC's shameless money grab will not work on this gamer...seen too many lame attempts to get people to spend over the last 25+ years of gaming, and this has got to rank among the greatest of them.
Your thoughts? It's your money.
What a scam. I just read about the pricetags for the core books on the EnWorld homepage, and my feeling for the real reasons behind 4E is now sunk: it's all about the money, folks.
The current 3.5 books are 29.95 each retail, and 20 on Amazon -- the new price, 35, will mean the Amazon price will be about 24. Last time I checked my math that means about $75 to "upgrade," or more if you don't take free shipping.
Huh. Yeah. No.
Savage Worlds is $10, and it plays faster. WOTC's shameless money grab will not work on this gamer...seen too many lame attempts to get people to spend over the last 25+ years of gaming, and this has got to rank among the greatest of them.
Your thoughts? It's your money.
I thought about the money-grab idea too but it doesn't make complete sense. I mean seriously, you are foregoing any real sale of rulebooks and supplements until 4th Edition is released while you are currently increasing the actual costs of your operational areas by dedicating employees to a new, as-yet unfinished project.
Not only are you slowing/eliminating revenue streams while increasing fixed costs but you are fracturing your market potentially while also causing serious disruptions in customer loyalty without specifically providing an upside like a new market segment that vastly outnumbers your current market that is going to be disaffected. Granted, the MBA doing the cost/benefit analysis may not have factored in the vociferous attacks on a new edition but I really doubt they had a rookie doing these types of business decisions (of course, a veteran group-think MBA could also BE the problem).
Nah, I don't really think that 4th Edition is a money grab.
(Edit)
I'll add a caveat though. If 4th Edition is a revision of rules that is more compatible for transfer to a video game / MMORPG like WoW, it could be that it's the precurser to a new online/tabletop PnP D&D system that tries to integrate both potential markets with one "game system." This could be a viable money-grab but it's doubtful.
Not only are you slowing/eliminating revenue streams while increasing fixed costs but you are fracturing your market potentially while also causing serious disruptions in customer loyalty without specifically providing an upside like a new market segment that vastly outnumbers your current market that is going to be disaffected. Granted, the MBA doing the cost/benefit analysis may not have factored in the vociferous attacks on a new edition but I really doubt they had a rookie doing these types of business decisions (of course, a veteran group-think MBA could also BE the problem).
Nah, I don't really think that 4th Edition is a money grab.
(Edit)
I'll add a caveat though. If 4th Edition is a revision of rules that is more compatible for transfer to a video game / MMORPG like WoW, it could be that it's the precurser to a new online/tabletop PnP D&D system that tries to integrate both potential markets with one "game system." This could be a viable money-grab but it's doubtful.
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cthulhu_duck
First Post
We play 3.5 even while several of us in our group have problems with it, because they're problems we can put up with and still have fun. We're currently playing a 3.5 campaign using an adventure path that we expect to be playing through the end of 2008.
In group discussion, nobody is excited about 4E. We're cautious, and one or two seem resistant to the need to spend more money than they already have with tight budgets
After the current campaign, there are 3-4 3.5 campaigns based on adventure paths or similar that we might look to play - and two homebrew campaigns which both GM's have plenty of 3.5 source material to source npcs, items etc from.
With 4E, I'm seeing and hearing things I don't like the sound of - but aren't sure if they're something that's actually going to be in the final 4E or not given how something is mentioned, and then we're quickly told that things have changed since that was written (in which case, why publish it now?).
I'll look at the 4E material when it comes out (both the books and SRD), but for now, and the foreseeable future, it will be to mine elements for reuse as house rules, not to run the game as published.
D&D Insider's richer applications are also unavailable to me (I'm a Mac User), so once the free access goes, I'll probably not look to subscribe.
In group discussion, nobody is excited about 4E. We're cautious, and one or two seem resistant to the need to spend more money than they already have with tight budgets
After the current campaign, there are 3-4 3.5 campaigns based on adventure paths or similar that we might look to play - and two homebrew campaigns which both GM's have plenty of 3.5 source material to source npcs, items etc from.
With 4E, I'm seeing and hearing things I don't like the sound of - but aren't sure if they're something that's actually going to be in the final 4E or not given how something is mentioned, and then we're quickly told that things have changed since that was written (in which case, why publish it now?).
I'll look at the 4E material when it comes out (both the books and SRD), but for now, and the foreseeable future, it will be to mine elements for reuse as house rules, not to run the game as published.
D&D Insider's richer applications are also unavailable to me (I'm a Mac User), so once the free access goes, I'll probably not look to subscribe.
Odhanan
Adventurer
I get what they're trying to do on the "less prep work, less bookkeeping" side of things with 4E, and get why it's going to appeal to a lot of DM. I also see many interesting ideas in the design.
The taste of the preview isn't D&D's for me though. It seems to be a whole new game, and what I want to play is D&D. As in B/X or AD&D. Not what WotC is presenting to us so far.
So I have no intention of switching to 4E to play D&D. Will I look at it? That'd be a "maybe" on my part. Would I play it? If a friend proposes a game, I'll play it, yes, much like I'd play anything to have a good time with friends.
But for me, at this point, D&D means my own "Advanced Castles & Crusades" which I am brainstorming at this point.
The taste of the preview isn't D&D's for me though. It seems to be a whole new game, and what I want to play is D&D. As in B/X or AD&D. Not what WotC is presenting to us so far.
So I have no intention of switching to 4E to play D&D. Will I look at it? That'd be a "maybe" on my part. Would I play it? If a friend proposes a game, I'll play it, yes, much like I'd play anything to have a good time with friends.
But for me, at this point, D&D means my own "Advanced Castles & Crusades" which I am brainstorming at this point.
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Dragon Snack
First Post
That would be Bill Slavecsik. He was even more upset in the D&D Q&A and DDM Q&A sessions (in the tiniest rooms at Gen Con since apparently WotC couldn't afford to accomadate everybody).mmu1 said:
You can actually hear the crowd in these, unlike the first version they posted without any extraneous noise whatsoever...Stereofm said:
1: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gJ3J8t2-RVs
2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=hWZ2WdeTo1M
3: http://youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXuMb6WWw
4: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-9vMYGu0Q
There is cheering at the end, but you can still hear the boos. Since it wasn't shot from directly in front (where I happened to be), I'm guessing more "fans" sat in that section...
Yeah, the tiny rooms for the Q&A "happened" to have quite a few WotC people sitting in the audience - I couldn't find those videos (I wonder why?).
Hunter In Darkness
First Post
nifft if your pro 4e i ask that you please post in this thread no longer. we're not looking for flames here please do not start any
Winterthorn
Monster Manager
More nay than yay - but it's still too early to be sure
Count me as a pessimist on 4E for now. Based upon what I've seen so far I do not like the direction WotC is going with the brand. I sense a shift to a super-power fantasy game and, well, I feel something of the fundamentals of D&D is being lost. I remember fondly in the days of B/X the sense of wonder that a character could start off only slightly above average with a few simple abilities - as much by imagined character concept and personality as by mechanical stats - and perservere at adventuring "life" to become a powerful and important force in a setting/story. Rules were rather open to interpretation and the pace of play was usually brisk. (Third Edition still retained the sense a character probably had humble beginnings even if his or her stats were above average.) With 4E I see hints of uber powers and abilities at 1st-level, changes to game based upon market research - which usually means the death of both tradition and originality whatever the business - and game mechanics changes that do not excite me. Every class with at-will powers, daily powers, etc.? No, not for me by the sounds of that thank you.
But everything is still up in the air, unofficial and changeable until something is actually published. So I won't rule out an examination of the final product to see if the pros outweigh the cons. But so far I am not enthralled. I am also concerned that 4E will have everything so codified, simple or not, that the DM becomes just a game administrator. That would be most uninspiring for me as a DM!
I should add two echoes: like many have said before I feel the new edition is too soon as I have plenty of 3.X stuff to run and play with for quite some time, and, also I can see myself pilfer good ideas from the 4E SRD to further polish the 3.X games I run. 3rd Ed was a fantastic improvement over 2nd Ed, IMO, but it does get rules and preparation heavy at times and there are a few cumbersome rules that need review - grappling seems to be the icon of awkward in 3E!
An aside: I read a few threads awhile ago that WotC wanted to encourage more combat with multiple opponents per encounter. It was expressed that this was somehow new - but I've been doing that as a DM with every edition of D&D I've run since Basic. I usually do not run published adventures. It has always been the minority situation for me to use a lone monster against a party. With the exception of a few special and powerful monsters, gangs thrown at the PC party were more realistic and more fun - albeit a bit of work to manage sometimes. This approach in 4E isn't original for me. I can't imagine I am the only DM who has used villainous groups and gangs against the PCs as a norm.
I really can't say much more about 4E until I see some real official drafts of what is coming - there's too much in flux and I'm generally happy with 3.0/3.5 for the time being.
Count me as a pessimist on 4E for now. Based upon what I've seen so far I do not like the direction WotC is going with the brand. I sense a shift to a super-power fantasy game and, well, I feel something of the fundamentals of D&D is being lost. I remember fondly in the days of B/X the sense of wonder that a character could start off only slightly above average with a few simple abilities - as much by imagined character concept and personality as by mechanical stats - and perservere at adventuring "life" to become a powerful and important force in a setting/story. Rules were rather open to interpretation and the pace of play was usually brisk. (Third Edition still retained the sense a character probably had humble beginnings even if his or her stats were above average.) With 4E I see hints of uber powers and abilities at 1st-level, changes to game based upon market research - which usually means the death of both tradition and originality whatever the business - and game mechanics changes that do not excite me. Every class with at-will powers, daily powers, etc.? No, not for me by the sounds of that thank you.
But everything is still up in the air, unofficial and changeable until something is actually published. So I won't rule out an examination of the final product to see if the pros outweigh the cons. But so far I am not enthralled. I am also concerned that 4E will have everything so codified, simple or not, that the DM becomes just a game administrator. That would be most uninspiring for me as a DM!
I should add two echoes: like many have said before I feel the new edition is too soon as I have plenty of 3.X stuff to run and play with for quite some time, and, also I can see myself pilfer good ideas from the 4E SRD to further polish the 3.X games I run. 3rd Ed was a fantastic improvement over 2nd Ed, IMO, but it does get rules and preparation heavy at times and there are a few cumbersome rules that need review - grappling seems to be the icon of awkward in 3E!
An aside: I read a few threads awhile ago that WotC wanted to encourage more combat with multiple opponents per encounter. It was expressed that this was somehow new - but I've been doing that as a DM with every edition of D&D I've run since Basic. I usually do not run published adventures. It has always been the minority situation for me to use a lone monster against a party. With the exception of a few special and powerful monsters, gangs thrown at the PC party were more realistic and more fun - albeit a bit of work to manage sometimes. This approach in 4E isn't original for me. I can't imagine I am the only DM who has used villainous groups and gangs against the PCs as a norm.
I really can't say much more about 4E until I see some real official drafts of what is coming - there's too much in flux and I'm generally happy with 3.0/3.5 for the time being.
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