D&D 4E Not going to 4e

[Dristram]

And if they do find that 1980s game, they'll learn to avoid it because of players like you that will insult their taste because it's different. Way to grow the fanbase!

Well, that was an unexpected comment. Where do you get the impression that I would insult anybody? The meaning of my post is that a company being able to use the name "Dungeons & Dragons" for a game that is quite changed in many of the game's core elements from the earlier editions of D&D is misusing the name IMO. The game is so different that it has finally become a different game. Other company's D&D-style rpgs are going to be more like D&D than 4e looks to be. The only reason they [the game designers] get to call it D&D is because they work for WotC.

On a side note, I can remember when D&D players were all angry about WotC buying the rights to D&D. WotC was the maker of MagicTG, aka role-playing crack, that destroyed many a D&D gaming group. WotC back then was the enemy. But Mr. Garfield was a big time D&D player and said he'd do right by D&D and so the players calmed down. Then when Hasborg took over the reigns, it all started again. But now, it seems, WotC is seen as THE makers of D&D and what ever they decide to do with the game is accepted because it's their game. IMO, I believe other game manufacturers would create a better new version of D&D that would follow the traditions of the game better and keep it feeling like D&D. Seeing what the WotC guys are doing with 4e, I wish that would happen.

 

[Dristram]

You know what - you're right. 4E isn't the cool D&D game from the 80's. And neither is 3rd Edition. Just ask some of the guys who still play 1st Edition, they will tell you that the fancy schmancy game you play is not the real D&D (and should properply be called something else, like Feats & Prestigeclasses )

I would agree with you as an old time player. But in all seriousness, at least 3.5 at it's core is very much a D&D style game. It's all the extra books that expands it past traditional D&D. 4e at it's core is seeming like a different game altogether. I was a huge fanboy of 3e before it came out. I was one of the big posters on Eric Noah's original 3e site. I DMed and played 3e happily until a couple years ago when it just got too much for me. For me, 4e is so different, I'm not even planning on going for it, which is very different from when 3e was announced.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

I would agree with you as an old time player. But in all seriousness, at least 3.5 at it's core is very much a D&D style game. It's all the extra books that expands it past traditional D&D. 4e at it's core is seeming like a different game altogether. I was a huge fanboy of 3e before it came out. I was one of the big posters on Eric Noah's original 3e site. I DMed and played 3e happily until a couple years ago when it just got too much for me. For me, 4e is so different, I'm not even planning on going for it, which is very different from when 3e was announced.

I think that 3E pulled off a masterful sleight of hand.
I went from BECM to 2E to 3E. 3E removed many of the AD&D rules that I, as a BD&D player never liked (exceptional strength, weapon vs. enemy size, segments), and made the ability score charts resemble those of BD&D. In at least some ways, it felt like a return to the game I grew up on.
To a player that went from 1E to 2E to 3E, core 3E offered the return of flavor that they had missed -- such as the barbarian, monk, and half-orc. In at least some ways, it felt like a return to the game they grew up on.

 

[Odhanan]

To a player that went from 1E to 2E to 3E, core 3E offered the return of flavor that they had missed -- such as the barbarian, monk, and half-orc. In at least some ways, it felt like a return to the game they grew up on.

I agree. I remember feeling that way as well when I looked at the 3E PHB for the first time. "Monks are back! COOL!" I really don't get this vibe from 4E. If anything, 4E actually reminds me of 2E: taking off assassins or monks or bards because they are "problematic". "Gnomes? Who wants to play a gnome? It's out. Bards aren't fun. Out." Etc.

Right know I just think 4E is to 3E what 2E was to 1E. Maybe worse. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I'm not holding my breath any more.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

FWIW, the reason D&D was cool in the '80s (and the '70s even moreso) was because there was nothing else like it. These days "fantasy roleplaying" is an old idea.

Same way Star Wars rocked the world in 1977 ... but looks a bit rickety and almost stodgy today.

It ain't just the edition -- it's a different world now.

-The Gneech

Personally, I find both AD&D and Star Wars holds up fine when compared to today's counterparts. Especially Star Wars. I'd rather play 4e in a room full of 90 year old naked bingo playing ex-prostitutes than watch the Star Wars prequels.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'll probably play 4e because what I've seen about it so far makes it seem like a fun RPG to me.

Ironically, a fun RPG to me is something that DnD has never been before.

This I think is the entire problem. 4e seems to be D&D made by people who don't like D&D. And made for people who don't like D&D.

 

[Dristram]

Right know I just think 4E is to 3E what 2E was to 1E. Maybe worse. I hope I'm proven wrong, but I'm not holding my breath any more.

I personally hope so too. But it seems to me that some traditional D&Disms are being changed. Probably because it doesn't make sense to the makers of 4e. Like something so simple as changing spell levels. Instead of 0-9, there are 1-25 level spells?? Sure, in a logical way it makes sense. But after 4e comes out, gone is the amazement that your character can now cast "9th level spells!" There is a lot about old D&D that makes you wonder what Gary was thinking. But because it doesn't make sense to you, doesn't mean it should be changed. There was a reason Gary did what he did. And besides that, it's the small things like 0-9th level spells that makes D&D what it is. 3e kind of built around the core things of traditional D&D. 4e seems to be re-writing them.

 

[Dristram]

This I think is the entire problem. 4e seems to be D&D made by people who don't like D&D. And made for people who don't like D&D.

I think you're on to something there big time.

 

[The_Gneech]

Personally, I find both AD&D and Star Wars holds up fine when compared to today's counterparts. Especially Star Wars. I'd rather play 4e in a room full of 90 year old naked bingo playing ex-prostitutes than watch the Star Wars prequels.

That's not even close to the point I was trying to make. ;P In 1976, there was nothing that was at all like Star Wars. Since then there's been Star Blazers, Buck Rogers, Battlestar Galactica (old and new), eight or so incarnations of Wing Commander, Babylon 5, The 5th Element, etc., etc., etc.

Star Wars isn't unique anymore because it's spawned a whole genre. Ditto D&D.

-The Gneech

 

[Agamon]

I think you're on to something there big time.

If he's talking about 2E, he's defintely onto something (how could anybody actually like that?).

Anyhoo, I won't be playing 4E. Not when it comes out, anyway. I'll be busy with my M&M game. And maybe a WFRPG game after that. It'll give me lots of time to see if I like the game. And I'll almost defintely not be getting any splats if I do play. One of the things I'm not liking about 3.5 is all the extra books, with spells, feats and PrCs that my players want to use. My fault for buying the books, won't happen again.