D&D 4E Not going to 4e

[Shortman McLeod]

I'm not saying 4e will be a bad game. It may be a wonderful game. But with all the changes they've made, it won't be D&D. I'm not a huge fan of 3e, but it's still recognizably D&D.

Compare D&D 3.x to AD&D 1e or OD&D (1974). Can you honestly say it's still "recognizably D&D"? If so, there are a whole slew of folks on dragonsfoot.org that would love to enlighten you.

 

[grimslade]

I'm not saying 4e will be a bad game. It may be a wonderful game. But with all the changes they've made, it won't be D&D. I'm not a huge fan of 3e, but it's still recognizably D&D. 4e is throwing all the D&Disms out with the bath water. Sure, it's got the name D&D, but if I were to suddenly get rich and buy the rights to D&D and wiffle ball and name the latter D&D it still wouldn't be D&D, even though wiffle ball is a hell of a fun game.

By virtue of the title on the cover of the books it will be D&D, wiffle ball hyperbole or not. It has some very minor changes in the grand scheme of things that only dedicated players will notice as different. 4E has classes. It has Hit points and a uses a d20 and all the other polyhedrals we know and love. The PHB will have an equipment chapter. The DMG will have magic items. There will be spells to cast and monsters to kill and loot. The same mishmash of pre-industrial world history will be jammed into it from gladiators to renaissance fencers. The game is the same but some details are changing.

As for the D&Disms, Vancian spellcasting is called Vancian spellcasting not D&D spellcasting precisely because it is not a D&Dism. The Great Wheel Cosmology and Magic Schools are setting specific fluff that is easily reinstated.

We have so little information at this point, and so much of the information we do have is changing. I don't know if 4E will be a good game or not at this point. I don't know if I will invest in it beyond the PHB but I know that 4E is most definitely D&D.

 

[Mistwell]

He has a point. Folks here seem to feel that they have a right to define what is and is not D&D for others. Apparently, even the people who hold the license to the property aren't allowed to do that (by changing the system), but they themselves are. Bit of hubris, that. And kinda rude to claim that they know what these designers do and don't like. As if they can read minds.

What really ought to be said is something more like, "4e seems to be designed by folks who don't like what I like in D&D, for people who don't like what I like in D&D."

Agreed.

 

[Wolfspider]

Compare D&D 3.x to AD&D 1e or OD&D (1974). Can you honestly say it's still "recognizably D&D"? If so, there are a whole slew of folks on dragonsfoot.org that would love to enlighten you.

Yeah, I think it's still recognizably D&D. Armor class. Hit Points. Attacks. Spells. Saving throws. Classes. Levels. Red dragons. Beholders.

Yep. It's all there.

D&D4e will also be recognizably D&D, I'm thinking. It just doesn't seem like a version of D&D that appeals to me, just like 3e might not appeal to many Dragonsfooters.

It's still D&D.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm not saying 4e will be a bad game. It may be a wonderful game. But with all the changes they've made, it won't be D&D.

I would be willing to bet that you could line it up next to any number of other game systems which are available in 2008 and say "which one of these is D&D" and have a pretty much 100% success rate amongst those guessing. Amongst the common threads that have been with D&D since its very beginning I can see experience points, levels, Hit points, Armour Class, Classes.

What is your evidence for asserting that it won't be D&D I wonder? What, to you, is the utter essence of D&D without which it cannot be reasonably called D&D?

 

[Shortman McLeod]

I would be willing to bet that you could line it up next to any number of other game systems which are available in 2008 and say "which one of these is D&D" and have a pretty much 100% success rate amongst those guessing. Amongst the common threads that have been with D&D since its very beginning I can see experience points, levels, Hit points, Armour Class, Classes.

Yep. Plus, it will say "Dungeons & Dragons" on the covers.

 

[DaveMage]

Well, personally, I don't think the whole "what is D&D vs. what isn't D&D" question really matters, does it?

We'll each define it ourselves - just like what makes a "good" play style.

Even though I'm not going to be playing it, I don't hold a grudge against people that think 4E is going to be the One True Game. Have fun!

 

[Arnwyn]

I sometimes wonder if someone who would seriously say this has liked D&D for a long time. The people who are making 4th edition are the same people who have been working on 3X for years now. Monte, Sean and Skip haven't been at the core of D&D work in years: the people who came after them are running things now...and they have been for some time.

If they understand how to make 3X products, what would make one think they forgot all about what made the game great when they decided to design 4E?

Just had a chuckle reading the above, shortly after reading this (from a different thread):

An interesting note:

Monte Cook says he's going back to 3e (with a little stuff from 3.5e)
Jon Tweet stopped using 3e some time ago, and can't wait until 4e.

Heh. Just a funny coincidence.

In any case, I do agree with the general sentiment expressed in the first quote.

 

[Nebulous]

Well, i was getting pretty tired of the standard 3.x D&D. i've had to branch out to third party systems like Arcana Evolved or Grim Tales and more to play the kind of d20 game i like. 4e seems to be incorporating a lot of changes i really look forward to, so many in fact, that i'm excited about D&D again. And i haven't felt that way since the onset of 3rd edition.

If the rules turn out to be crappy next summer, then i'll be mad.

 

[Roland55]

I say: let's respect those who are happy with 4E's presentation, and let's respect those who feel disoriented, confused, or sad because of it. Let's discuss and agree to disagree, because it seems to me now that obviously the people posting on these boards and elsewhere sometimes have a very different idea of what they want out of "Dungeons and Dragons". If we want our opinions to be respected around here, it's time to stop the snide remarks, the passive-aggressive attitude, the characterization and stereotyping, the vindictive humor, the straw man arguments, and all those attacks against other people who don't share our opinions.

Too many people around here just want to be the only ones right. This has got to stop.

If I wasn't already married ...

Perhaps people have forgotten this is ... just a game. We may be very passionate about it ... but it is just a game.

Take a deep breath and step back for a minute. Remember that your self-worth does not depend, in any way, on what is posted on this forum about this game. When you're about to post about someone else or about their opinions, remember the Golden Rule.

No matter how angry you may feel about what someone else just posted, treat them and their opinions with respect. You absolutely do not have to agree with them, in any way. Just don't disrespect them.

The one thing I can guarantee: disrespecting someone else is a lousy idea, in every way. You aren't building yourself up when you're knocking them down.