D&D 4E Not going to 4e

Since we know so little about 4e, its hard to really say whether I want to go with it. On the plus side, 4e seems to be trying to streamline the game (less 3e hypercomplexity and slowness, more od&d). 3e's complexity and horrid stat blocks above about 5th level made me not want to dm the game (though playing was still a blast).

On the negative side, I too am concerned because a lot of these changes seem unnecessary. I somewhat disagree with the moderator's post a few posts back. Rather than making the absolute statement the moderator was correcting, e.g. "4e is not d&d (because d&d is defined by me)", and rather than making the typical relativistic tail chasing argument that "d&d is whatever you want it to be dude" that illuminates nothing in a discussion, I question whether or not 4e has too many degrees of freedom relative to what D&D has been understood to be by a majority of the fan base over time.

Erik Mona over on Paizo said something to the effect that he wasn't interested in having some random R&D guy at Hasbro change too many mental images that he has accumulated over thirty years of playing d&d. Obviously, a few changes are no big deal but now duergar are diabolical, succubus aren't allowed because demons are all brutish and no longer smart and cunning, tieflings are a core race, we have 30 levels of spells, the planes have been changed AGAIN, vancian magic is sorta gone, halflings are nomadic river rafters [?] rather than tolkeinesque hobbits or dragonlance kender, wizards have "pushing hands" blasts of force, and various classes have a huge variety of odd buffing effects...Based on very preliminary set of rules, 4e SOUNDS a lot more different from 3e than 3e was from 2e or 2e was from 1e or 1e was from od&d -- not just mechanically, but in terms of its basic images.

The changes don't seem to be doing much to fix the mechanical problems of 3e (horrible prep time for dms, too many buffs, too much complexity in stat blocks, polymorph is whacked) and they don't do what Mona has done in Pathfinder in terms of breathing new life into old monsters (e.g. goblins) yet they may cut into 30 years of "mental imagery" that most people have had of d&d.

I am a bit worried.
 

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trollwad said:
Since we know so little about 4e, its hard to really say whether I want to go with it. On the plus side, 4e seems to be trying to streamline the game (less 3e hypercomplexity and slowness, more od&d). 3e's complexity and horrid stat blocks above about 5th level made me not want to dm the game (though playing was still a blast).

On the negative side, I too am concerned because a lot of these changes seem unnecessary. I somewhat disagree with the moderator's post a few posts back. Rather than making the absolute statement the moderator was correcting, e.g. "4e is not d&d (because d&d is defined by me)", and rather than making the typical relativistic tail chasing argument that "d&d is whatever you want it to be dude" that illuminates nothing in a discussion, I question whether or not 4e has too many degrees of freedom relative to what D&D has been understood to be by a majority of the fan base over time.

Erik Mona over on Paizo said something to the effect that he wasn't interested in having some random R&D guy at Hasbro change too many mental images that he has accumulated over thirty years of playing d&d. Obviously, a few changes are no big deal but now duergar are diabolical, succubus aren't allowed because demons are all brutish and no longer smart and cunning, tieflings are a core race, we have 30 levels of spells, the planes have been changed AGAIN, vancian magic is sorta gone, halflings are nomadic river rafters [?] rather than tolkeinesque hobbits or dragonlance kender, wizards have "pushing hands" blasts of force, and various classes have a huge variety of odd buffing effects...Based on very preliminary set of rules, 4e SOUNDS a lot more different from 3e than 3e was from 2e or 2e was from 1e or 1e was from od&d -- not just mechanically, but in terms of its basic images.

The changes don't seem to be doing much to fix the mechanical problems of 3e (horrible prep time for dms, too many buffs, too much complexity in stat blocks, polymorph is whacked) and they don't do what Mona has done in Pathfinder in terms of breathing new life into old monsters (e.g. goblins) yet they may cut into 30 years of "mental imagery" that most people have had of d&d.

I am a bit worried.

I think you are expressing my concerns, as well. In fact, I was feeling at least ambiguously positive about 4E until I came over to ENWorld and started reading all the rumors, factoids and semi-daily updates on news bits about 4E. Suddenly, my picture of the game started skewing away....badly.....from what it was before, the idea that the new edition would basically be a simplifaction and "easification" of 3E. Now I'm not so sure.

These days, I've got this weird feeling that, come May 2008, I will be coveting my Castles & Crusades books more than I ever thought I would, or sticking with something else a bit more familiar, like 2nd edition AD&D or Runequest....I have no doubt I'm still going to buy the core D&D 4E books, and will give it a shot, but man alive, I'm having a hard time seeing how I will be able to shoehorn my 26-year plus D&D campaign in to the 4th edition as it seems to be shaping up to, right now.
 

camazotz said:
Suddenly, my picture of the game started skewing away....badly.....from what it was before, the idea that the new edition would basically be a simplifaction and "easification" of 3E. Now I'm not so sure.

I'm right there with you. All the flavor changes are decent to "WTF?" to me. The redeeming point was the management issue: less prep time, shorter stat blocks, etc. We've seen ONE stat block, and that was the only real piece of evidence we had: it looked good to me.

But then, what we now learn of the system through the design/dev columns does picture another style of system, actually. It seems that stat blocks are shorter, but all the various mods, the options etc are still going pretty strong under the hood. Shorter prep time maybe, but management of the system itself, in-game? Seems to be about the same complexity as 3E. Ergo, the big positive appeal of 4E to me looks like a mitigated advantage at this point. It doesn't look like the system became THAT much easier to run.
 

Wolfspider said:
If the game is so great to begin with, why would they make all of these rather odd changes when designing 4e?
This is a good point, but the obvious counter is to compare it to what happened from 2.0 or "2.5" (Skills and Powers) to 3.0. A major edition change is a big thing. Each time up until now we've changed editions in D&D we've seen the vision of a new team of designers tackle it.

Fourth Edition is the first time we have an existing team looking at a new Edition, so it will be something a little different.

There are a lot of problems with 3X D&D, and they've existed from the beginning. I'm running a moderately high level game now (12th level) and I'll tell you that it's becoming a real chore to run, and that seriously has impacted my enjoyment of the game. I seriously doubt that the campaign I'm running now will make it to 20th level, quite frankly, and if the new edition can change this, I'm all for it. I have no idea if it will, mind you, and if it doesn't I'll be there with the torches and pitchforks along with everyone else.

--Steve
 

Please dont take this as trying to start anything, it isnt. I havent seen or heard one thing about 4E this far that I've liked over 3.5, and that surprises me. I was pretty against 3E when it came out but at least there were a lot of changes I liked, in fact, I had been using some of the new 3E rules as house rules for some time. I'm become less and less convinced every day that this is an overhaul of a broken system and more and more convinced that it is an attempt to simply rake in more cash.
 

I'm starting to think of D&D as a very broad thing these days, perhaps due to 4e. To me D&D includes not only every edition to go by that name but also Tunnels & Trolls, Palladium Fantasy, Hackmaster, Castles & Crusades and maybe True20.

T&T is kind of borderline because it doesn't use a d20 or armour class. Or Vancian magic. Or clerics. But it does have levels, classes and hit points (sort of, it uses your Con score instead).
 

I don't see how you can regard 3e as D&D and 4e not. Certainly not late 3e which has non-Vancian magic, fireball monks, stage monsters and interesting magic items. You'd be forced into the strange position of viewing D&D 3e with certain splats as being a completely different game than if you don't use those splats. Even though the same core rules would be present.
 

DaveMage said:
Well, personally, I don't think the whole "what is D&D vs. what isn't D&D" question really matters, does it?

We'll each define it ourselves - just like what makes a "good" play style.

So if I say chess is D&D, I would be correct?
 


Doug McCrae said:
I don't see how you can regard 3e as D&D and 4e not. Certainly not late 3e which has non-Vancian magic, fireball monks, stage monsters and interesting magic items. You'd be forced into the strange position of viewing D&D 3e with certain splats as being a completely different game than if you don't use those splats. Even though the same core rules would be present.
Wow, where do you find all those things? Must be in some of the 3.5 books from the last year. I have not seen the things you mention, so I am not sure of the entire point you are trying to make.
 

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