D&D (2024) Not loving weapon mastery with beginners

[Guest 7037866]

To an extent.

Yep. And for many not at all...

 

[Clint_L]

It’s a new thing that makes martials more interesting to play. Would you begrudge one player pretties because it slows the game when added to the ones the other players get?

Can we not make this about masteries vs. whatever? This new thing is having an unexpectedly large, negative impact on my game. That it is all.

I don't want to get into a game of "whatabout X" while avoiding the point.

 

[Clint_L]

spells are far more of a much bigger slowdown in getting new players to learn the mechanics as there are far more individual rules with multiple layers of them, realistically you could speed things up much more by removing them rather than maneuvres but nobody does that, they give them all a giant pass because 'they were already part of the game'

Yes, and because you would be removing almost every character class.

 

[Clint_L]

I think the question is how do you approach spellcasting with beginners and why are weapon masteries different. It’s not obvious why it’s slowing down the game for beginners because all of it is new, including spells. Since so many classes have spells, what’s the difference between a beginner picking up the mechanics of a spell vs a weapon mastery?

I feel like this is not too com plicated to explain. Maybe I need an example.

We have 90 minutes sessions after school. Combats are now taking much longer than they used to, and the new thing that has made them slower is weapon masteries with beginning players. So we don't get nearly as much done. There. That is the issue.

I feel like folks are trying to make this about martial vs. spell casters or something. It is not. It is a very specific issue with the new rules and beginning players.

 

[Clint_L]

I’m guessing you don’t play with new players often (which the OP is taking about). IME, new players take forever to learn what spells do and to pick the spell they want to use.

In our game with 4 out of 5 PCs adding weapon masteries we didn’t notice much change in game speed, but we are not new players either.

No, masteries are much slower. Spellcasters take a lot longer to create because of the choices, but in play at level 1, they are pretty straightforward. In combat, the player only has a couple choices and the tooltip for the spell is right there. Masteries are another step at level 1, and also usually involve tactical considerations that the beginning player has no context for. They also involve more math, which is a bigger barrier for more new players than a lot of folks realize.

I've been running the D&D Club at my school for years. I have lots of experience. What I've noticed in the first few sessions this year is that weapon masteries, specifically, are grinding things to a halt.

 

[cbwjm]

I feel like this is not too com plicated to explain. Maybe I need an example.

We have 90 minutes sessions after school. Combats are now taking much longer than they used to, and the new thing that has made them slower is weapon masteries with beginning players. So we don't get nearly as much done. There. That is the issue.

I feel like folks are trying to make this about martial vs. spell casters or something. It is not. It is a very specific issue with the new rules and beginning players.

Just wondering, what have you done to make it easier for them to pick it up and approx. how much extra time is it costing the group? Do you normally play with 8 players?

I do get that it can be difficult teaching new players, it's always going to take longer even without weapon mastery. I'm sort of reminded of Risk: Godstorm; it would take us 3 hours to play normally unless you had at least 1 new player, in which case it took 4 hours.

 

[Horwath]

I guess you could do that. I don’t really see how it’s any less complex than, like, Graze, or Push, or even Topple.

Am I crazy? Everyone’s acting like weapon masteries introduce a ton of complex decision trees, but… Every mastery does exactly one thing, and it does that one thing every time you hit with it. Is it so hard to remember that whenever you hit with your longsword your target gets disadvantage on its next attack? How is that any harder to learn than which die you’re supposed to roll when you hit?

I said in my 1st replay that all masteries are nobrainer, but this is most simplified for some that want even simpler.
Just write bonus damage on your sheet and you can forget about it, just like Nick.

 

[ECMO3]

And they're still figuring out what bonus actions are.

This is part of the problem certainly, but it is particularly difficult with two-weapon fighting because this is something others are also doing as an action ..... "what do you mean I can use my bonus action to attack, you just told Mary she could only attack with her action."

 

[Quickleaf]

Get some notecards and give cheat notes for the newbs.

While on one hand, this is fantastic advice – always great to have little cheat sheets for players grokking the game.

OTOH, this sort of stuff always makes me think of the "initiative tracker micro-economy" of products out there – magnetic strips, cards, standees, clockers, vinyl erasable boards, etc, etc. Which only become necessary once you've bought into the whole initiative as turn order system.

So on the other hand, it's a great solution... that exists because of a design decision/issue waaay upstream.

 

[Horwath]

This is part of the problem certainly, but it is particularly difficult with two-weapon fighting because this is something others are also doing as an action ..... "what do you mean I can use my bonus action to attack, you just told Mary she could only attack with her action."

this is one of the reasons why TWF should have always been part of Attack action or just part of attacking with main hand.
2014 completely fumbled TWF and now because of "muh compatibilitah" it is hotfixed with Nick mastery.

TWF is a weapon set, you have;

1Hander + Shield,
2hander,
TWF,

that is it.

you could say that 1Hander+free hand is a weapon set, but that is just desperation to have free hand to do something else.

now those 3 sets, OFC counting melee/ranged balance should work as a basic action, don't care how they will balance that but it must be done.

Because if you need Bonus action for Offhand attack then you need Bonus action to "ready" a shield, Bonus action to "load" a bow and Bonus action to pre-swing Heavy 2Handed weapon.