Now Is This A Promise?

[ShadowDenizen]

In this case, they are not yet accepting for-pay subscriptions, so there is no product yet to make "promises" about.

Not quite so, IMHO.

What about the people who bought in to 4E in the hopes of using the DDI to "reunite old groups"? DIdn't WotC make an implied promise to those people? Simply because they are not making people pay doesn't make it any less of a promise. WotC touted the "DI" as the cornerstone of 4E; they even had large ads in the 4E core books, though they presumably knew that the DDI was not ready to launch as planned.

And now they plan to launch the pay site, and it still doesn't have all the functionality that was promised (I'm particularly thinking of the online character generator, which, IMO, should have been the FIRST thing online!), and likely won't for some time to come.

I'm just saying that there's a distinction to be made between when someone says "I'll try to do this," "I will do this," and "I promise to do this." Even though they mean the same thing, there's a different amount of trust and commitment on the line.

Exactly. Simply becuase we're not currently paying for it doesn't mean that we should hold them to lesser standards/ give them a free ride for reneging on a deadline they themselves set, and without giving (IMO) an adequate explanation. (And that's not a rant against WotC, I'd say that about any other comapny where it was warranted.)

 

[roguerouge]

Not sure, but here's a different question.

If it is a week late, does it really matter? How about two? I'm not sure it matters that much at those points. Frankly, I'm annoyed that sometimes we don't get content on a MWF, or that content is useless, but if it is a day late or even a week, did I really lose any value?

If you pay for a month's worth of material and you get three weeks of material.... And if you pay to have a month's worth of access to material and you only receive 3 weeks worth of access to that material.... yes, you've been gipped if you get less material and yes, you've been gipped if you get less time with the material.

 

[JoeGKushner]

The last batch of 3.5 books were supposed to have stats updated to the D&D website to make them 4e compatible. Hence the 4e logo to indicate that they would be 4e compatible.

Never bought the book, so that one hasn't bugged me.


Not sure what you mean here. Stormreach? I don't rememember anyone promising Stormreach as a 4e product.


Not sure what you mean there. Just the fact that their logo changed ahead of the 4e change?

As for "not delivering", in this case I have seen what they're delivering so far -- and it's why I'm considering subscribing. As long as the quality of the two online mags keeps up, I'm golden. If it drops, then I don't resubscribe, simply.

 

[Raven Crowking]

False advertisement is use of misinformation to persuade you to make a purchase, or enter into some other transaction. At the moment, you cannot purchase the goods. They cannot persuade you to pay for a service that they clearly admit does not exist for sale at the present time.

If, at the time they're selling it, they're misrepresenting it, then it might be false advertising.

Wiki: False advertising is the use of false or misleading statements in advertising. As advertising has the potential to persuade people into commercial transactions that they might otherwise avoid, many governments around the world use regulations to control false, deceptive or misleading advertising.

There is no requirement in the term "advertising" that includes a mandate that the product be available at the time of advertisment. Movie trailers are a prime example of advertising that come out long before the product.

As I said above, "Once you advertise something, you need to take all reasonable efforts to make it so." And there can be little doubt that building up hype for a product is advertisement.

As Cadfan said, "the very first thing I'm going to ask you is whether you had access to better information when you made your purchase in October." If you know that the earlier advertisement was wrong, because the advertiser covered his tracks as the product changed through production, he is probably off the hook. False advertising requires either intent or negligence.

(Cadfan, correct me if I am wrong, as this is your area of expertise.)

It could be argued that the ads for DI factor into the decision to purchase 4e, amounting to a sort of "bait and switch".

(Again, though, I bow to expert opinion.)


RC

 

[Cadfan]

At least in my state, there's no actual bright-line requirement that the product be available at the time the misrepresentation is made, because there are barely any bright-line requirements at all. We just prohibit vague concepts like unfair or deceptive acts or practices, or unconscionable behavior. What falls into that category is determined on a case by case basis.

Its the sort of thing that would drive D&D forum denizens absolutely batty- they'd start whinging about rules as written and undefined terms and eventually their heads would explode in a big, bloody spatter. Fortunately, unlike the RPG world, the legal world has accepted the inability to precisely list all possible human behavior.

That being said, the time when the misrepresentation was made would be something I would consider relevant. Its hard to win a case for deceptive business practices when it looks like the business didn't intend to deceive anyone, and only a moron would have in fact been deceived.

In any case, this whole conversation is a bit surreal. Of the four things they promise will be available on release, three of them are already available now. The only one at issue is whether the Adventurer's Vault or FR Player's Guide will be uploaded on time.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That being said, the time when the misrepresentation was made would be something I would consider relevant. Its hard to win a case for deceptive business practices when it looks like the business didn't intend to deceive anyone, and only a moron would have in fact been deceived.

Although it is my understanding that at least one 4e product has been released with inflated page count (i.e., what it says on the package isn't what's inside). I would put that down to "poor quality control" myself, like the Sir Smears-A-Lot ink used to print the 4e books, but there might be an argument that this is (intentionally or not) deceptive.

Again, though, I bow to greater authority.


RC

 

[Umbran]

There is no requirement in the term "advertising" that includes a mandate that the product be available at the time of advertisment. Movie trailers are a prime example of advertising that come out long before the product.

Yeah, and when the trailer contains a scene the movie doesn't, or if the poster has a frame the movie doesn't, do you go around crying "False advertising! False advertising!"? So far, I haven't seen anyone doing so in the Media Lounge...

The issue at hand is pretty simple - being reasonable and even handed in your critique of the company. Folks try to hold WotC to a nitpicky standard that they don't regularly hold any other business to.

I am sorry, but it looks disingenuous. On the scale of corporate evil... WotC does not register. If you feel the need to be a consumer rights avenger, maybe you should addressing a case where someone actually gets hurt.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yeah, and when the trailer contains a scene the movie doesn't, or if the poster has a frame the movie doesn't, do you go around crying "False advertising! False advertising!"? So far, I haven't seen anyone doing so in the Media Lounge...

The issue at hand is pretty simple - being reasonable and even handed in your critique of the company. Folks try to hold WotC to a nitpicky standard that they don't regularly hold any other business to.

I am sorry, but it looks disingenuous. On the scale of corporate evil... WotC does not register. If you feel the need to be a consumer rights avenger, maybe you should addressing a case where someone actually gets hurt.

I think you are getting a little more hot under the collar than you should be from my posts. If not, you are coming off that way.

"Corporate evil" and "consumer rights avenger" are your words, not mine.

I merely pointed out the movie trailer as an obvious example of where advertising takes place before there is a product to sell. Trying to push that analogy any further is...well, pushing it.

But, since you asked: If Spider-Man 4 was adverted as a 3-hour movie, but was only 2 hours long, I believe there would be complaints. This is, perhaps, not much different than producing a product in which you advertise 1/3 more page count than you deliver. It doesn't mandate "corporate evil", but it is a case where false or misleading advertising might cause one to buy a product one might otherwise avoid. Especially if there is no rapid correction once the mistake is learned, and there is no willingness to compensate the consumer.

Negligence isn't co-equal to evil, you know.


RC

 

[The Little Raven]

Folks try to hold WotC to a nitpicky standard that they don't regularly hold any other business to.

Yeah, I've seen a whole lot of the "one set of strict rules applies to WotC only, and another set of looser rules applies to everyone else" mentality recently. The Dragon cartoon thread, especially, is full of it.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yeah, I've seen a whole lot of the "one set of strict rules applies to WotC only, and another set of looser rules applies to everyone else" mentality recently. The Dragon cartoon thread, especially, is full of it.

When Joe Mom & Pop has as much control over something I care about as WotC does over D&D, you can bet your buttons that I'll do my best to urge them to high standards.

I would recommend you do the same.


RC