Numbers vs. roleplaying

Alloran said:
Okay, I'm sure there've been all sorts of debates on this and other boards, and I'm another noob-type looking for the same thing. Now, I'm just asking for OPINIONS here, and I'm not trying to start any sort of war or anything. And if this is the wrong forum for this, well... I don't think it is. ^_^

Is the point of d20 a math game (which stats do what where and how well) or a roleplaying game? The obvious answer is roleplaying, as it is-in fact- a roleplaying game, but seriously. How many DMs have players that think the only point is to be the best at whatever they do?

In my groups, I reward roleplaying and story completion (when there is one) much higher than I reward combat monkeying. Now, this is for two reasons, a) because I really suck at describing combat, and b) because I like telling a stroy moreso than I like just encounter after encounter.

~Alloran

IMO, its a Roleplaying Game first and foremost. Its an interactive story where the players are the main characters. Its not about numbers, twinking or using the rules to make the best character possible. Its about being the hero and seeing the events through the eyes of that hero.
 

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Geoff Watson said:
If you really like 'telling a story' I suggest you become a writer, as most players like having some control over what happens.
Somewhere along the line the term 'Telling a story' became, in some peoples minds, 'Dictating a story and railroading the players'. Certainly some early (DragonLance) - and some later very poorly written modules (one of the Randall Morn ones comes to mind) - gave that impression. Nothing could be further from the truth.
 

Geoff Watson said:
If you really like 'telling a story' I suggest you become a writer, as most players like having some control over what happens.

The players do dictate what happens. The rules are just a guideline to cover events that the hero whats to do. D&D and other RPG's are interacrive stories not a story goverened by a set of rules.
 

I strongly recommend that anybody struggling with this issue (and even people who are not struggling with it) pick up a copy of Robin Laws' Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering. It contains an extensive section on "Player Personalities", what they are and what satisfies them.

In a nutshell, the theory is that most players fall into one of these categories fairly consistently. As a result, their behavior and what will bring them joy in a game is somewhat predictable. Knowing and understanding what sorts of players you have around your table is (in my opinion) key to running a healthy, long term campaign.

One of the things that can be determined from this understanding is whether you should be GMing for these people at all. If you are a "Story Teller" (this is one of Mr. Laws' categories) and you are GMing a lot of "Powergamers" then either you or they are probably not having a lot of fun unless you are both willing to compromise quite a bit.

For myself, the group that I play in and run games for looks like this:

"Tactician" (this is me - I love to solve tactical challenges, both in and out of combat)
"Story Teller" (this guy is most happy when engaged in the story)
"Butt-Kicker" (this guy is most happy when we are engaged in combat)
"Specialist" (this guy usually picks one of a narrow group of archetypes to play as his character and is most happy when he is doing the thing that this PC is very good at)
"Power Gamer" (this guy wants to be great at his "thing" and get even better at it by gaining levels and magic items)
"Casual Gamer" (this guy just likes coming to the game and being with friends)

Based on this, when I GM, I understand what an average session needs to look like in order to make everybody happy. I really just need to forward the current storyline and have some combat (that covers the Story Teller and Butt-Kicker). I need to make sure that I also give the Specialist a moment to shine, whatever his specialty may be. The Power Gamer will probably find a way to shine all by himself (most often this manifests itself in combat) and the Casual Gamer is just happy to be there (one thing about Casual Gamers though is that they don't usually want to be the center of attention, so I don't thrust him there unwillingly). As for me, it is easy to have my fun as I can run the NPC's and bad guys in a tactically sound manner, which satisfies my primary way of having a good time.

It is probably obvious from what I've just said, but if your group is all a single type of players then the GM's job is much easier. I also think that if the group are all Story Tellers and the GM is a Power Gamer that there is going to be some disharmony. The opposite if of course true as well.

I cannot overstate how valuable a resource that book has been to me. While I was aware of the various play styles in our group for many years, having that information presented in a codified manner and having advice for how to meed the players various needs was a big breakthrough for our gaming group.
 

You know, the theory that detailed rules hinder roleplaying is a fairly widespread one, but I still have to hear exactly how this happens.

Seems to me that it is an excuse to cover up a lack of desire to roleplay. Or maybe it's an attempt to justify a prejudice against a system.

 

In general, I got into rpgs back in 1975 to get away from rules arguments in Panzer Blitz and miniatures battles. I wanted a game that was much more freeform, much less "Rule 3.12.8.5.2" **sigh** I loathed those days...

I like rules and crunch in the game, in that the rules provide structure. However, when the game is really flowing, we (GM and players in our game) drop rules by the wayside because the story is so good. In other words we like having the rules to provide a bit of structure, but we don't allow ourselves to be restricted by them.

This explains why our combat runs a lot faster than most other groups we have observed -- and we have a lot more fun with it! ;)
 

Geoff Watson said:
Having an effective character has nothing to do with roleplaying.

You can roleplay Superman as easily as you can roleplay a crippled idiot.

For many folks, having an effective character has quite a bit to do with roleplaying. Not everybody likes to roleplay ineffective characters. In fact, I think it reasonable to guess that most folk don't like a constant diet of ineffectiveness. Rarely do folks get a real buzz out of hanging around have no positive effect, while everyone else does all the interesting stuff. And if the player doesn't like it, the player is unlikely to do it well.

Plus, in a story that is action-adventure oriented, ineffective characters frequently wind up dead. How much fun can you have roleplaying an inanimate character?
 

Wombat said:
In general, I got into rpgs back in 1975 to get away from rules arguments in Panzer Blitz and miniatures battles. I wanted a game that was much more freeform, much less "Rule 3.12.8.5.2" **sigh** I loathed those days...
Wargames have been around, in some form or another, for quite some time, and the level of rules complexity moves up and down in cycles. Most modern wargames derive from the Kriegspiel (literally wargame) of 19th-century Prussia, which itself went through that cycle:
The nineteenth-century Prussian game started life with a rigid structure and copious formal rules. The two sides were each placed in a separate room with a model of the terrain or a map. The umpires moved from one room to another collecting orders from the players, and then retired to a third room to consult the rules and find the results of combat. A great deal of their time was consumed in leafing through voluminous sets of rules, consulting tables and giving rulings on fine legal points. By about 1870, however, this rigid system was starting to be thought rather clumsy and time-consuming. Quite apart from the many defects and loopholes in the rules themselves, it reduced the umpires, who were often very senior officers, to the role of mere clerks and office boys. clearly, such a state of affairs was intolerable.
Most "modern" games of the 1980s (e.g., Squad Leader, Third Reich) followed the "voluminous sets of rules" model, but the Prussians moved away from it 100 years earlier:
It was General von verdy du Vernois who finally broke with this system, and abolished the rule book altogether. His approach to the wargame was the free kriegspiel, in which the umpire had a totally free hand to decide the result of moves and combats. He did not do this according to any set of written rules, but just on his own military knowledge and experience. He would collect the players' moves in exactly the same way as before; but he would then simply give a considered professional opinion on the outcome. This speeded up the game a very great deal, and ensured that there was always a well thought-out reason for everything that happened. This was a great help in the debrief after the game, and it allowed players to learn by their mistakes very quickly.
A modern "free kriegspiel" often combines umpiring with a randomizer (e.g., a ten-sided die, or "nugget"):
The system for finding the results of combat in a free kriegspiel is classically simple. First of all the umpire looks at the position of each side: how many and what type of troops are involved; how their morale is bearing up; and what orders they have been given. He next considers the ground on which the action will be fought, and any special tactical problems which either side might encounter; whether there are any obstacles in the way of an attacker; whether a flank attack might be possible, and so on.

When the umpire has all relevant information at his disposal, he ought to be able to give an informed opinion on the probabilities of the result. He will not simply say something like 'The French infantry hassuccessfully stormed the hill', but will quote possibilities, such as: 'The French have a 50% chance of storming the hill successfully; a 30% chance of capturing half of it, while disputing the rest; and a 20% chance of being totally repulsed. High scores favour the French'. It is important that the umpire is as specific as possible with these figures, as this forces him to consider all the factors involved in the combat and to think through the full implications of his decision. He must also be clear whether a high dice roll will be good or bad for the attacker, i.e., whether the top 50% (a die roll of 5-9) or the bottom 50% (a roll of 0-4) will mean the hill has been carried. In this case he has stated that the high score will be good for the attacker.
Even a 100%-simulationist, not-at-all-narrativist game can be extraordinarily rules-lite.
 

Zappo said:
You know, the theory that detailed rules hinder roleplaying is a fairly widespread one, but I still have to hear exactly how this happens.

Seems to me that it is an excuse to cover up a lack of desire to roleplay. Or maybe it's an attempt to justify a prejudice against a system.


I agree with you that more rules do not actually equal less roleplaying. I think the theory is based of off one of two things:

1) New players who are given so much rules structure that they do not ever really learn the subtler roleplaying aspects of the game.

2) Long time roleplayers who get bogged down in the rules while trying to learn them and as a result roleplay less. This happened to us when we converted to 3.0 - we really lost the roleplaying side of things until we got comfortable enough with the rules to know when to toss them aside.
 
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hong said:
So does this mean you'll stop whinging in mid-October, or can we expect a fresh round of whinging then?

Oh, Hoooo-ong...



...Besides, he'd better not be burned out - he's gaming with me twice in late September! :)
 
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