D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

[FireLance]

What do you think of the following house rules:

Tactical Insight: Once per encounter, you can spend a minor action to add your Intelligence modifier to an attack roll or a skill check that you make in the same round.

Instinctive Reaction: Once per encounter, as an immediate interrupt, you can add your Wisdom modifer to one of your defences.

Survivor's Luck: Once per encounter, you can spend a minor action add your Charisma modifier to a saving throw you make at the end of your turn.

 

[theNater]

We should consider skills that benefit the party, and skills that benefit the individual.

Every individual benefits from Perception and Initiative.
The whole party benefits from at least one member covering each "knowledge" skill.

Basically, some skills can be used by one member for the whole party, while other skills (and initiative) must be used by each member individually.

Cheers, -- N

Excellent point. In most parties, dex will be preferable to int for all characters who don't key powers off of either one.

I want to point out that, in those other rare parties, there will likely be choices for the character who ditches dex for int. And it won't hurt him too badly.

But yes, for most such characters, dex will be more valuable than int most of the time.

 

[Spatula]

There are no fighter class skills, or useful feats for a fighter keyed to Int in 4e. Ingoring the other advantages I've already pointed out that a high Cha gives a fighter in 3e, there is the undeniable fact that one of their class skills (Intimidate) keys off Cha. Try again.

Hmm? There are no other benefits, other than one class skill using Cha. A fighter uses Wisdom for his class abilities, and only one of Wis/Cha can apply to your will defense, making Wis more valuable to the fighter in execution of his class role.

Never said it wasn't (in fact, if you *read* what I posted I actually said it was sub-optimal). What I said was that it was a *viable* option in 3e - it totally isn't in 4e.

Sure it is. Make a high-Str wizard, take some multiclass feats to get melee class powers. You now have a sword-swinging wizard.

We're talking non-optimal builds; your imagination is the limit. It all comes down to how many resources you're willing to devote to a concept. In your case, you put points into Strength that probably would have been better spent elsewhere, and spent feats that probably would have been better spent elsewhere, in order to have some melee capabilities. In 4e, you'd put points into Strength that probably would have been better spent elsewhere, and spend feats that probably would have been better spent elsewhere, in order to have some melee capabilities. I'm not sure why you keep claiming it's impossible.

 

[Dormain1]

What do you think of the following house rules:

Tactical Insight: Once per encounter, you can spend a minor action to add your Intelligence modifier to an attack roll or a skill check that you make in the same round.

Instinctive Reaction: Once per encounter, as an immediate interrupt, you can add your Wisdom modifer to one of your defences.

Survivor's Luck: Once per encounter, you can spend a minor action add your Charisma modifier to a saving throw you make at the end of your turn.

they dont look half bad, I would probably make them feats with a 13+ability requirement or an aspect of a class power such as Channel Divinity

Also on a side note, what @will power does a human warlock take as his third @will?

 

[Nifft]

On further reflection, I'll name the three categories:

Someone: "Knowledge" skills (or rather, the knowledge sub-section of skills like Arcana); "Identify" skills (like the detect magic use of Arcana); one-off face skills (many uses of Bluff, Diplomacy and Insight which are NOT part of a party-wide Skill Challenge); Ritual Casting skills. For this category, only the maximum result among all party members matters. Having two party members with high check bonuses gives your party two chances, but you all only benefit from the highest.

Each Alone: Perception, Endurance, Acrobatics and Initiative are the poster children here. This category is for skills (and checks) which apply to each party member individually. Everyone has his own Initiative check, and one guy with a huge bonus won't impact (or be impacted by) another guy with a terribly low penalty.

Everyone: Athletics and Stealth are what stand out. Particularly Stealth. This category is for skills of which only the lowest result matters. When the whole party needs to get over a wall, everyone must make the Athletics check, or the party isn't going to progress. When the whole party wants to sneak into a location, the guards only have to hear one of them for the gig to be up.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

What do you think of the following house rules:

Tactical Insight: Once per encounter, you can spend a minor action to add your Intelligence modifier to an attack roll or a skill check that you make in the same round.

Instinctive Reaction: Once per encounter, as an immediate interrupt, you can add your Wisdom modifer to one of your defences.

Survivor's Luck: Once per encounter, you can spend a minor action add your Charisma modifier to a saving throw you make at the end of your turn.

These look good. I'd allow Charisma to be added to a death save, too.

And I'd call that power Too Pretty To Die.

Cheers, -- N

 

[FireLance]

And I'd call that power Too Pretty To Die.

I like that name , but instead of having two powers, I'd probably just add a note that a minor action is not required for a death save.

Just thinking about it a little more, adding your Intelligence bonus once per encounter may be too good when used with daily and maybe even encounter powers. Perhaps it would be more balanced if you could only add it to basic attacks, at-will powers and skill checks?

 

[Nifft]

I like that name , but instead of having two powers, I'd probably just add a note that a minor action is not required for a death save.

Oh, I meant a single power that was either a save or a death save. And it shouldn't be any kind of action, since you can't always take actions on rounds when you make even normal saves.

Just thinking about it a little more, adding your Intelligence bonus once per encounter may be too good when used with daily and maybe even encounter powers. Perhaps it would be more balanced if you could only add it to basic attacks, at-will powers and skill checks?

Yeah, adding to any attack would be too strong, and would step on the toes of the Wand specialist Wizard.

Adding to a single attack when you have combat advantage would make it very attractive to Rogues, less useful to Defenders & ranged attackers (except Fey Warlocks), and would make Warlord Daily powers shine a bit more (not a bad thing in my estimation, since those tend to help the whole party). Hmm. May still be too awesome in the hands of a Cold-specialized Wizard.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Spatula]

When the whole party needs to get over a wall, everyone must make the Athletics check, or the party isn't going to progress.

Just to nitpick - your characters don't carry rope?

 

[Nifft]

On third thought: attack is wrong. Attack bonuses are worth selling your soul.

Let's have Intelligence give a damage bonus once per encounter. Damage is cheap!

Cheers, -- N