D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

[mattdm]

they dont look half bad, I would probably make them feats with a 13+ability requirement or an aspect of a class power such as Channel Divinity

There's no point in making them have an ability requirement in the applicable ability, since they don't do anything for you if you don't have a bonus.

It might be interesting, though, to make them require the other "masking" ability, because that's what bugs me about all this. (It's all well and good to not be penalized for making an irrelevant stat low, but I don't like people being punished for making it high.) But I'm not sure exactly what the in-game justification (aka fluff) for that would be.

 

[AllisterH]

Well, you need either Strength or Con, or else you're a sitting duck for attacks against your Fortitude. You can decide for yourself whether hit points and healing surges, or attacks with non-light weapons and carrying capacity, are more important. But if you don't have one of them high, you have a definite vulnerability, and monsters with ranged attacks vs. Fortitude are not rare.

But that can be worked around (how many monsters actually attack fortitude at range as well?) Throw in for example the +2 from a feat and the only difference would be +1 versus a 16 CON character.

Like I said, these theoretical discussions are great but they tend to not be holistic enough for my liking.

For example, say your character concept is literally the Jack of all Trades/sly-tongue rogue.

I'd go DEX, CHA, INT. Pick up toughness and you should be set.

 

[dasheiff]

Example 8th level party who have seen
and survived a few combats and skill challenges
and their stats.


Gregragonborn-Warlord(Chr)
Str: 18 Dex: 10 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 9 Chr: 20

Mark: Human Fighter (Unarmed, Crippleing)
Str: 18 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 18 Chr: 9

Mac:Tiefling Paliden (Undead Affinity)
Str: 16 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 11 Wis: 10 Chr: 20

Ryan: Human Wizard (Ice, +Striker)
Str: 9 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 20 Wis: 16 Chr: 12

Sean: Eladrin Wizard
Str: 10 Dex: 11 Con: 14 Int: 20 Wis: 16 Chr: 12


Average-
Int: 15.4
Chr: 14.6
Str: 14.2
Wis: 13.8
Con: 13.2
Dex: 11

So a party of 2 wizards, a paliden, fighter and warlord
not suprising Int, Chr/Str, Wis/Con, Dex.

 

[Nifft]

This may sound blasphemous but is CON really that important for a non-frontliner? I know that in 3.x, making any character with a CON of 10 would get you strange looks especially for a melee character but in 4E?

Con is regarded by many to be a dump stat in 4e (Int and Cha are the other two for many classes). You need Con 13 to get certain armor proficiencies, and higher for certain weapon feats, but that's it. The hit point difference between Con 10 and Con 20 is exactly ten total, no matter what your level is -- which makes Toughness quite attractive as an alternative.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Stalker0]

The hit point difference between Con 10 and Con 20 is exactly ten total, no matter what your level is -- which makes Toughness quite attractive as an alternative.

Its a little bit more than that. Its +10 hitpoints, +2 hitpoints healed per healing surge, +5 to your bloodied total, and +5 more healing surges. Those secondary benefits are important, especially the fact that you heal more with your surges.

But even so, the difference between con and int is while con may not be critical, it has a definite mechanical impact on every character, one everyone will notice. The difference may be small, but you will notice a difference.

For many classes, int is just a waste of points. It boots skill you won't use, and does nothing better than dex. Heck, take a look at paragon feats and you'll realize even fighters need high dex, because there are a crazy number of fighterish feats that take high dex.

Btw, I've only skimmed the thread, but I really like the idea of int adding a +1 to a number of skills equal to your int mod. A +1 to skills is still significant, and it at least throws in some use for int, even if its a minor one.

 

[Ahglock]

This may sound blasphemous but is CON really that important for a non-frontliner? I know that in 3.x, making any character with a CON of 10 would get you strange looks especially for a melee character but in 4E?

I'm not sure it is actually that NEEDED.

That is how I see it as well.

I really can't see a huge reason to put points in con if it isn't tied to your abilities. Heck if I was playing a wizard(and not DMing) I'd totally dump all of the physical stats. Which makes 4e stat distribution very similar to how a wizard looked in 2e, and barring con just like they looked in 3e. Rogues probably would prefer either charisma or strength over intelligence in 4e, but they would not be loosing so much that the concept would be crippled.

 

[Nifft]

Its a little bit more than that. Its +10 hitpoints, +2 hitpoints healed per healing surge, +5 to your bloodied total, and +5 more healing surges. Those secondary benefits are important, especially the fact that you heal more with your surges.

This is a very good point. Healing Surges are a limited commodity.

Heck, take a look at paragon feats and you'll realize even fighters need high dex, because there are a crazy number of fighterish feats that take high dex.

Swords & Flails need Dexterity for sure. Chain and Scale armor, and Shields, all like Dexterity too. Constitution is the preferred attribute for Blunt weapon users.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Enverxis]

What do you think of the following house rules:

Tactical Insight: Once per encounter, you can spend a minor action to add your Intelligence modifier to an attack roll or a skill check that you make in the same round.

Instinctive Reaction: Once per encounter, as an immediate interrupt, you can add your Wisdom modifer to one of your defences.

Survivor's Luck: Once per encounter, you can spend a minor action add your Charisma modifier to a saving throw you make at the end of your turn.

I'm going to tie these into action points.

ACTION POINT BONUS RULE

You may use an action point as an immediate interrupt to add your Dex+Int to AC/Reflex OR Str/Con to Fortitude OR Wis/Cha to Will Saves when suffering a threatening attack.

Also in relation to this thread. I've dabbed with a few ways to try and make intelligence a bit better, I think buffing the Skill Training and Skill Focus feats was the best choice for me.

new Skill Training: INT Mod number of Trained Skills
new Skill Focus: +5 to particular skill

also fixes the reason to take them rather than a multiclass feat just for skills (although I am also going to combine Encounter/Daily swap feats into the same feat.

 

[Hussar]

Ritual Casting is great. But again, I'd argue only one or two dudes need it: one for Heal & Nature, one for Arcana & Religion.

And they can act as each other's back-up.

Cheers, -- N

Swimming up thread a bit.

Fair enough, you only need two dudes for it. That's half the party that's not dump statting Int then. To me, that would mean that Int isn't really a dump stat. If it was a dump stat, then wouldn't more than half the party dump it?

Every class has dump stats. Always has and always will. Some classes (Wiz and Warlord) need Int, and Int is probably going to see some play in one of the other PC's at the table (assuming you have either a wizard or a warlord). Sounds fairly balanced to me.

 

[Nifft]

Swimming up thread a bit.

Fair enough, you only need two dudes for it. That's half the party that's not dump statting Int then. To me, that would mean that Int isn't really a dump stat. If it was a dump stat, then wouldn't more than half the party dump it?

Actually, it's one: Heal and Nature key off of Wisdom.

3/4 can dump Intelligence; 3/4 can dump Wisdom.

Cheers, -- N