D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence
DrSpunj
Explorer
With a successful Resurrection ritual...
So, now that we're about 6 months into this whole 4e thing, has anyone messed with Intelligence or made any House Rules about ability stats in general?
I've only just started playing in one game and DMing another, and Intelligence just doesn't seem worth much outside Wizard or Warlord classes. What's been everyone else's experiences so far?
So, now that we're about 6 months into this whole 4e thing, has anyone messed with Intelligence or made any House Rules about ability stats in general?
I've only just started playing in one game and DMing another, and Intelligence just doesn't seem worth much outside Wizard or Warlord classes. What's been everyone else's experiences so far?
Yeah I completely agree that int is a dump stat for many classes. Now there are a few that use it:
Wizard
Int based Warlords
Warlocks (secondary stat)
Swordmages
But for those who don't, it is a dump stat. I will say I just made an int cleric recently who looks pretty good. He has a wizard multiclass, a lot of AC in light armor, and jack of all trades so he is very good with skills.
Danceofmasks
First Post
Well, you might go with light armour if you're laser, but battle clerics are probably better off dumping int and dex and investing in proficiencies.
FireLance
Legend
Yes. Knacks.
Reproduced below, after some consolidation and editing.
[SBLOCK]The knacks sub-system addresses an issue that I have with 4e attributes: the lack of a unique advantage for having a high Intelligence.
Under the knacks sub-system, a character gains one knack for every point of Intelligence bonus. A knack is effectively a "mini-feat", and balance-wise, a knack should be worth approximately a third of a Heroic-tier feat. A knack could also grant a bonus to a specific type of skill check, or make a slight change the way in which an action works. Lunge, in particular, fixes a pet peeve of mine.
Knack Bonuses and Feat Bonuses
Certain knacks provide a bonus to skill checks. I am not keen on allowing thse bonuses to stack with feat bonuses, as the combination of Jack of All Trades and Skill Knack would result in a net +4 bonus to skill checks for that skill, which is almost as good as Skill Training. On the other hand, if knacks simply provide feat bonuses, Jack of All Trades would make Skill Knack irrelevant. My compromise solution is for knacks to provide a +1 feat bonus to skill checks and an additional +1 bonus to untrained skill checks. While this is more complicated, it has the effect that Skill Knack by itself provides a +2 bonus to a skill check, and Skill Knack and Jack of All Trades together provide a +3 bonus to a skill check. This seems about right to me, balance-wise.
Some ideas for knacks are as follows:
Language Knack
Choose one language. You can speak, read, and write that language fluently.
Special: You can take this knack more than once. Each time you select this knack, choose a new language to learn.
Skill Knack
Choose one skill. You gain a +1 feat bonus to skill checks with that skill. If you are not trained in that skill, you gain an additional +1 bonus to skill checks with that skill.
Special: You can take this knack more than once. Each time you select this knack, choose a different skill.
Background
Select a background, such as farmer, blacksmith or sailor. You gain a +1 feat bonus to skill checks and an additional +1 bonus to untrained skill checks for skills related to your background. Your DM may disallow backgrounds that he considers inappropriate for his campaign.
Easy Escape
Prerequisite: Trained in Acrobatics or Athletics
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus and an additional +1 bonus to Acrobatics and Athletics checks to escape from a grab.
Forager
Prerequisite: Trained in Dungeoneering or Nature
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus and an additional +1 bonus to Dungeoneering or Nature checks to forage.
Monster Lore
Prerequisite: Trained in Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, or Religion
Benefit: Select a specific monster origin or keyword covered by a skill you are trained in, e.g. elemental, fey or shadow for Arcana, immortal or undead for Religion, etc. You gain a +1 feat bonus and an additional +1 bonus to monster knowledge checks related to monsters with that origin or keyword.
Special: You can take this knack more than once. Each time you select this knack, choose a different monster origin or keyword.
Lunge
Benefit: When you charge, you may attack after moving only one square from your starting position. However, you do not gain the +1 bonus to attack rolls that you would normally get for a charge.
Weapon Knack
Choose two weapons of the same handedness (one-handed or two-handed) and group (mace, light blade, heavy blade, etc.) that you are proficient with. When you wield one of your chosen weapons, you may adjust your grip (or make some other change to the way in which you wield it) as a minor action and use it as if it was the other weapon instead. For example, a rogue with Weapon Knack (dagger, short sword) may choose to use his dagger as a short sword and gain a damage die of 1d6 instead of 1d4, but would not be able to make ranged attacks with it or gain the bonus to attack rolls from his rogue weapon talent while doing so. Reverting to a weapon's original usage requires another minor action. When you draw one of your chosen weapons or otherwise ready it for usage, you may choose to use it as either weapon as a free action.
Special: You can take this knack more than once. Each time you select this knack, choose two different weapons.
[/SBLOCK]Choose one language. You can speak, read, and write that language fluently.
Special: You can take this knack more than once. Each time you select this knack, choose a new language to learn.
Skill Knack
Choose one skill. You gain a +1 feat bonus to skill checks with that skill. If you are not trained in that skill, you gain an additional +1 bonus to skill checks with that skill.
Special: You can take this knack more than once. Each time you select this knack, choose a different skill.
Background
Select a background, such as farmer, blacksmith or sailor. You gain a +1 feat bonus to skill checks and an additional +1 bonus to untrained skill checks for skills related to your background. Your DM may disallow backgrounds that he considers inappropriate for his campaign.
Easy Escape
Prerequisite: Trained in Acrobatics or Athletics
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus and an additional +1 bonus to Acrobatics and Athletics checks to escape from a grab.
Forager
Prerequisite: Trained in Dungeoneering or Nature
Benefit: You gain a +1 feat bonus and an additional +1 bonus to Dungeoneering or Nature checks to forage.
Monster Lore
Prerequisite: Trained in Arcana, Dungeoneering, Nature, or Religion
Benefit: Select a specific monster origin or keyword covered by a skill you are trained in, e.g. elemental, fey or shadow for Arcana, immortal or undead for Religion, etc. You gain a +1 feat bonus and an additional +1 bonus to monster knowledge checks related to monsters with that origin or keyword.
Special: You can take this knack more than once. Each time you select this knack, choose a different monster origin or keyword.
Lunge
Benefit: When you charge, you may attack after moving only one square from your starting position. However, you do not gain the +1 bonus to attack rolls that you would normally get for a charge.
Weapon Knack
Choose two weapons of the same handedness (one-handed or two-handed) and group (mace, light blade, heavy blade, etc.) that you are proficient with. When you wield one of your chosen weapons, you may adjust your grip (or make some other change to the way in which you wield it) as a minor action and use it as if it was the other weapon instead. For example, a rogue with Weapon Knack (dagger, short sword) may choose to use his dagger as a short sword and gain a damage die of 1d6 instead of 1d4, but would not be able to make ranged attacks with it or gain the bonus to attack rolls from his rogue weapon talent while doing so. Reverting to a weapon's original usage requires another minor action. When you draw one of your chosen weapons or otherwise ready it for usage, you may choose to use it as either weapon as a free action.
Special: You can take this knack more than once. Each time you select this knack, choose two different weapons.
DracoSuave
First Post
Int is a dump stat for Fighters, Rangers, Rogues, Barbarians.
In other news, Strength is a dump stat for many characters as well.
Now that we've established that point, can we talk about aspects of character design that are -new- to 4th edition, as opposed to aspects that have been around since 1st?
In other news, Strength is a dump stat for many characters as well.
Now that we've established that point, can we talk about aspects of character design that are -new- to 4th edition, as opposed to aspects that have been around since 1st?
My only question is why isn't initiative a dex/int thing, like ac and ref are? Initiative is your "readiness" or something, how quickly you can pull yourself together. The same logic that lets INT add to ref should let it apply to Initiative. They should have let that be the case and then we wouldn't have to argue about it. They could be nice and 'interchangeable' like CHA and WIS. Thats what i would do if i were king of 4e.
I'm against INT adding more skills known. They deliberately didn't allow that because they wanted # of skills/powers to be left in the realm of race/class/feat choice, not in anyway effected by attributes. It works well.
Saying INT is an obligatory dump stat just sounds like "oh noes!!11!" to me. A character that wants INT rather than DEX takes at worst a 4 point hit in initiative (assuming and 8 vs a 16 which is about as big a split you'll see if they aren't class driven choices, in general its probably more like a 1-2 point difference in init). This is 100% survivable. Having initiative is nice and a good bonus, but low initiative happens to every non-dex class, you'll just have to adapt to doing it a little more often. Int pulls as much weight as the other mental stats (you could say they do less than int, seeing as they only increase one defense instead of two).
INT is doing fine. Its nice to be able to dump it, and its nice to be able to choose it. You can do either and have fun.
I'm against INT adding more skills known. They deliberately didn't allow that because they wanted # of skills/powers to be left in the realm of race/class/feat choice, not in anyway effected by attributes. It works well.
Saying INT is an obligatory dump stat just sounds like "oh noes!!11!" to me. A character that wants INT rather than DEX takes at worst a 4 point hit in initiative (assuming and 8 vs a 16 which is about as big a split you'll see if they aren't class driven choices, in general its probably more like a 1-2 point difference in init). This is 100% survivable. Having initiative is nice and a good bonus, but low initiative happens to every non-dex class, you'll just have to adapt to doing it a little more often. Int pulls as much weight as the other mental stats (you could say they do less than int, seeing as they only increase one defense instead of two).
INT is doing fine. Its nice to be able to dump it, and its nice to be able to choose it. You can do either and have fun.
