D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

Nail

First Post
So, now that we're about 6 months into this whole 4e thing, has anyone messed with Intelligence or made any House Rules about ability stats in general?

I've only just started playing in one game and DMing another, and Intelligence just doesn't seem worth much outside Wizard or Warlord classes. What's been everyone else's experiences so far?

Int is a dump stat for Fighters, Rangers, Rogues, Barbarians.

In other news, Strength is a dump stat for many characters as well.

Saying INT is an obligatory dump stat just sounds like "oh noes!!11!" to me. ....INT is doing fine. Its nice to be able to dump it, and its nice to be able to choose it. You can do either and have fun.

DrSpunj is asking this question (thread necromancy!!!) - in part - because of me. I built a Human Fighter for his game last week, and dumped Int and Chr. Alot. And as we all know, a well-built Fighter doesn't need those ability scores.

...Kinda like a well-built Warlord doesn't need Dex or Wis. Or a well-built Wizard doesn't need Str or Dex. Etc.

I'm not sure this is a problem with the Int ability score. It's just a feature of optimizing a PC, IMO.
 

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DrSpunj

Explorer
I don't have FRPG but I'll try and flip through it in the store and look at this. Until then I'm assuming it just makes Intelligence your primary stat for attacks & damage?

I'm not introducing any House Rules for at least 6 months or so beyond starting stats (choose what you want from 3-18, total Mods must = +9, then apply racial mods; I think being able to start with a score below 8 is important for some players) & Stalker0's Obsidian system, and hopefully not any more even then, but I do think the non-physical stats don't hold their own against the physical ones, and that Intelligence is the worst of the three.

Making Intelligence or Dex apply to Initiative is an easy change, as is buffing # of Languages known with IntMod or minor skill synergy bonuses like 3e had. I also like someone's suggestion earlier in this thread, and building off that maybe Int of 8 equals only 1 language known (or illiteracy if you only know 1 language to begin with) and anything less would be illliteracy with your only language.

Much of my concern stems from the difficulty most everyone has trying to roleplay a low Int/Wis/Cha score when there aren't mechanical limitations built into the system. Deciding exactly what someone with a low Int but high Wis is capable of thinking/doing in or out of combat is not something I want to be troubled by around the game table, however that shouldn't be ignored either when someone gains a significant mechanical advantage in the form of better physical stats they enjoy every combat.

It's not an issue currently and I don't expect it to be with Nail's PC, but I'm curious what others have done who share my concern. Thanks to FireLance for throwing up the Knacks system!
 

Stalker0

Legend
Int is a dump stat for Fighters, Rangers, Rogues, Barbarians.

Int wasn't a dump stat for Rangers and Rogues in 3rd...at least not the ones I saw. So that's 2 classes that lost any drive to pick up int.

Further, I also agree that strength is too much of a dump stat for wizard and the like. I wonder if leather armor prof should have had a 10 strength requirement, so its not an automatic buy for a wizard.
 

Badwe

First Post
my group was initially accidentally using INT as a bonus to initiative, and once we realized we were making that mistake, we liked the change so much we decided to keep it.
 



DrSpunj

Explorer
Further, I also agree that strength is too much of a dump stat for wizard and the like. I wonder if leather armor prof should have had a 10 strength requirement, so its not an automatic buy for a wizard.

I took Leather proficiency for my Wizard and thought the very same thing when I did it!

And since I haven't said so in the relevant threads, Stalker0, thanks for all your efforts on Obsidian and other stuff. Much appreciated!
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Much of my concern stems from the difficulty most everyone has trying to roleplay a low Int/Wis/Cha score when there aren't mechanical limitations built into the system. Deciding exactly what someone with a low Int but high Wis is capable of thinking/doing in or out of combat is not something I want to be troubled by around the game table, however that shouldn't be ignored either when someone gains a significant mechanical advantage in the form of better physical stats they enjoy every combat.

Well, with the current point buy, only one of these stats can be below 10, and not that far below either (8 isn't mungostupid if it's Intellegence, for example, it's just a little slow.) So in reality, you're playing characters with average levels of mental capacity at worst, which is a lot easier to envision with a single trait that excells.

Average Intellegence and Charisma, but High Wisdom indicates someone who is perceptive, but perhaps they are quiet and don't try to reason what they perceive means. They might notice the smudge on someone's shoe and that they're acting a bit nervous, but they aren't Sherlock Holmes and can't deduce the culprit's been in the garden.

Average Charisma and Wisdom, but High Intellegence means they're more likely to stand back, go with the crowd, and spend more time thinking than talking. They won't notice the smudge, but if the above guy quietly tells them, they'll be able to say 'Yeah. Probably was in the garden or something.' But they'd be less able to persue the matter or convince someone on its importance.

Average Intellegence and Wisdom, but High Charisma is just smart and perceptive enough to be convinced as to the value of the above information, and while they won't be able to add to the hypothesis, they'll be the most capable of confronting the villain in this case, and force a confession out of them through sheer force of personality, be that through a clever verbal trap, or outright intimidation.

You're not dealing with mungo stupid. All three characters are smart and perceptive enough to understand what's going on once someone points it out, and all three can communicate to whoever it needs communicating to. They're average except for their individual talent that sets them apart as individuals.

When dealing with the 10/10/16 style mental attributes, ask yourself what sort of personality does the character portray, and play the 10s as average. Sub-optimal in terms of being an attack-stat is not the same as sub-optimal on the bell curve of humanity.
 


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