D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

[DrSpunj]

So, the dex bonus to init is about as "relevant" as the extra HP from better con. It's nice, but it's not something where a class that doesn't want the dex for other reasons is going to care that much about it.

I think to a Wizard it's more important, which is why the fact that Int doesn't help Initiative feels like a bigger deal to me. Since both sides are intent on charging and getting all mixed up and/or spread out which powers a Wizard can bring to bear seems to be most open early on in the combat, especially before the mobs go if at all possible.

Even at 1st level in both my groups I've seen the Wizard want to go early to:

• plug a hole with Cloud of Daggers, Flaming Sphere, Freezing Cloud or Icy Terrain
• Blast the mobs grouped up with Burning Hands, Icy Terrain, Scorching Burst, Sleep, or Thunderwave

After the mobs and/or other party members go when everyone's mixed up you can focus on a single mob with several at-wills or use Force Orb selectively at times but then you're still relying on at least 2 mobs being adjacent which frequently doesn't happen or last long with players taking out minions or killing tougher mobs with their own Encounter or Daily powers.

I think it's ironic that a Warlord grants +2 to Initiative with Combat Leader but focuses on Int instead of Dex as a class. At least he doesn't feel the sting from a low Dex because of the ability like the Wizard does.

 

[Cobblestone]

I plan on making all of the wisdom skills int skills except perception and insight. I don't thing that will make wisdom a dump stat because those are two extremely useful skills.

I would go the opposite way--make all the Intelligence skills Wisdom, and make Insight and Perception INT-based. Intelligence becomes how well you learn, and Wisdom becomes what you know. Intelligence is no longer a dump stat because of the importance of Perception, and that perception explains why INT adds to your Reflex defense.

Peace,

C-Stone

 

[Nail]

So, the dex bonus to init is about as "relevant" as the extra HP from better con. It's nice, but it's not something where a class that doesn't want the dex for other reasons is going to care that much about it.

I think to a Wizard it's more important,....

"Going first" is a good idea if:

• you have an area of effect power that doesn't discriminate between allies and enemies (Scorching Burst), or
• you have combat advantage before people first act (rogue class power), or
• your tactical movement later in combat is limited (no Warlord or Fighter or Rogue in the party), or
• you have a good "charging" power.

That said, the initiative adjustment from Dexterity - so long as it's not your primary stat - is pretty darn limited, especially after the Heroic Tier of play. It's just not that likely that you have a Dex over 13...again, unless it's an attack stat. And "going first" is also of only limited utility - only minions will be killed by one shot, and most DMs (and published modules) tend to spread out minions so that a "first shot" catches only a few.

So for several classes in the PH (Cleric, Fighter, Warlock, Warlord, Wizard), it's just not important at all. ....And such a stat is known as a "dump stat". You can neglect it in favor of other things.

 

[DrSpunj]

I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree, as I don't see Dex as a dump stat for Wizards because of it's benefit to Initiative.

The Controller role can be described as:

• getting rid of minions with blast powers (Scorching Burst, Burning Hands, Thunderwave)
• reducing the effectiveness of one or more combatants for a period of time (Sleep, Ray of Frost, etc)
• trying to manipulate the battlefield in the party's favor (Icy Terrain, Flaming Sphere, Cloud of Daggers)

Initiative can play a distinct role in all 3 of these cases. A better initiative can mean:

• A higher chance at getting several mobs grouped appropriately without hitting any/most of your allies
• Hitting your target(s) before they have a chance to close, keeping them out of the battle for a round or two
• Blocking or limiting some enemy pathing completely for a time

Also, starting with a Dex of 13 means when you hit Paragon it bumps to 14, and a +2 bonus when all the other math is balanced level to level is hard to ignore, in many other instances +2 is considered a worthwhile bonus.

Also, if your DM (that would be me!) is constantly placing minions so the Wizard (or Dragonborn, or many other classes/powers) can never reasonably make use of his selected blaster powers...well, I just consider that unfun for all involved. But again, the Wizard is not at all just about minions, and loses out with a low Dex since Int doesn't help Init. Still my 2 coppers, though I think I'm at least at 1 silver now.

 

[Nail]

...and since our next meeting is without the wizard (Yikes!!), we'll have no immediate play-test experience about round 1 utility. We'll have to wait until December in our game....

Low bonuses (+1 or +2) are useful when there are many opportunities to use them. For example, getting an additional +1 to hit on every attack is useful. But how useful is getting a +1 to hit just once per combat?

Same argument with initiative, which by definition happens once per combat.

Both of us are pretty new to 4e. (Wouldn't it be cool to be in college again and playing every week?) In 3e, init bonuses didn't change as the PC leveled, so having a high init mod from Dex carried through all the way to Epic levels. In 4e, the Dex bonus to Init mod becomes less important as the PC levels -- even with the "All Stats" boost at 11th and 21st. The question is: is the difference noticable?

 

[DrSpunj]

In 4e, the Dex bonus to Init mod becomes less important as the PC levels -- even with the "All Stats" boost at 11th and 21st. The question is: is the difference noticable?

But Monsters get the same underlying bonus as PCs since their ability scores are calculated the same way (plus one-half the monster's level, DMG pg 184) so I'll agree the portion of Initiative directly derived from Dexterity contributes less to the total as levels increase, but it's far from "less important", IMO. On the contrary, any bonus above one-half level you can get is happily useful over the course of all 30 levels!

The All Stats boost are something monsters don't get, so there's an inherent +1 PCs start enjoying at level 11 or 21. The rest must come from your Dex or feats or buddying up with a Warlord.

Point being, sacrificing Dex at 1st level is something that may or may not have a major impact in any single combat for a Wizard (or any other class you listed above that really wants to go first), but over the course of 8-10 encounters over 30 levels is definitely going to have some importance. Over your primary stat? Absolutely not, but over a +1 to one of your other Saves? Possibly, since you're guaranteed to roll Initiative in every combat encounter and there are plenty where your Fort or Will save never see use.

 

[eleventh]

I spent a LONG time last night going through all 9 pages of posts in this thread. It is a genuinely interesting topic.
What I've gleaned from all the back and forth and extracted is a list of all the suggested solutions to this "problem":

1) Use the higher of DEX/INT for initiative
2) Confer skill bonuses based on INT
3) Offer attractive feats with INT-requirements
4) Gain Reflex Defense from both DEX and INT
5) Tie the Skill Training feat to INT somehow
6) Tie [starting] languages to INT somehow
7) Gain unique bonuses from INT, WIS, and CHA
8) Rename/clarify the differences between INT and WIS
9) Provide players extra information based on their INT
10) Incorporate a system such a "Knacks" for INT

I thought it might be helpful to be able to reference these "solutions" by number.

 

[eleventh]

In the interest of further summary, I'll also try to capture the argument.

DEX provides the following benefits:
-AC Defense Bonus (if wearing light armor and DEX is higher than INT)
-Reflex Defense Bonus (if DEX is higher than INT)
-Ranged Basic Attack Bonus (if not using heavy thrown or at-wills)
-Initiative Bonus
-Acrobatics Skill Bonus
-Stealth Skill Bonus
-Thievery Skill Bonus
-Access to DEX-based Feats (see below)

INT provides the following benefits:
-AC Defense Bonus (if wearing light armor and INT is higher than DEX)
-Reflex Defense Bonus (if INT is higher than DEX)
-Arcana-based Ritual Bonus
-Arcana Skill Bonus
-History Skill Bonus
-Religion Skill Bonus
-Access to INT-based Feats (see below)

Ability-based Feats:
DEX (15) Agile Hunter
DEX (13) Astral Fire
DEX (13) Blade Opportunist
DEX (13) Combat Reflexes
DEX (13) Far Shot
DEX (15) Nimble Blade
DEX (13) Quick Draw
DEX (13) Raging Storm
DEX (13) Two-handed Fighting
DEX (13) Two-handed Defense
DEX (13) Warrior of the Wild
DEX ((15)) Arcane Reach
DEX ((15)) Armor Specialization: Chainmail
DEX ((15)) Armor Specialization: Scale
DEX ((17)) Defensive Advantage
DEX ((15)) Evasion
DEX ((15)) Heavy Blade Opportunity
DEX ((13)) Light Blade Precision
DEX ((17)) Scimitar Dance
DEX ((17)) Seize the Moment
DEX ((15)) Shield Specialization
DEX ((13)) Spear Push
DEX ((15)) Sweeping Flail
DEX (((19))) Flail Mastery
DEX (((17))) Flanking Maneuver
DEX (((21))) Heavy Blade Mastery
DEX (((17))) Light Blade Mastery
DEX (((19))) Spear Mastery
DEX (((19))) Two-weapon Flurry

INT (13) Burning Blizzard
INT (13) Improved Misty Step
INT (13) Linguist
INT (13) Arcane Initiate
INT {13} Blade Initiate

 

[Aloïsius]

Int should give bonus languages. That would solve the "dump stat" problem IMHO.

 

[WalterKovacs]

You left out quite a bit from the list of benefits:

(A) There are also religion based rituals that require a check

(B) A number of feats, sneak of shadows (dex) comes to mind, in addition to the multiple new languages feat.

In general, on a class by class basis, if neither INT nor DEX are "core", DEX would be picked over INT. [For example, a Barbarian will probably pump DEX over INT]. However, there are at least a few class combinations that give a bit more in terms of rewards. For example a cleric might prefer higher INT because of ritual casting. Similarly, a paladin in plate + heavy shield is going to have a huge penalty to his dex based skills anyway.