D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

[Obryn]

I'm not seeing the problem... I see that it's different from 3e, but I think there are fewer problems in 4e.

One of the things I like about 4e is that anything could be a dump stat, if you choose to make it so. I'll grant that it may not be ideal to stack up on both Int and Dex, or on Wis and Cha, but really - how is this different from every other edition?

Charisma was the archetypal dump stat in every previous edition. 3e actually made it useful for several classes, but for everyone else it was a suboptimal choice. Want a charismatic fighter? Well, get ready to multiclass, because otherwise your charisma bonus is crap.

Likewise, people in heavy armor have dump-statted Dexterity for the past 8 years. It was encouraged as a dump stat, even. You could have your plate-armored paladin take an 18 Dex, but it was mostly useless.

Wizards and sorcerers could always dump-stat their Wisdom, since they got awesome Will saves anyways. You could have a high-wisdom mage, but it was sub-optimal.

I guess I'm not seeing the problem. There have always been sub-optimal score allocations that people picked anyways for role-playing purposes.

-O

 

[Spatula]

Which proves my point. In this case, a wizard/warlock (especially true in the case of a warlock where some powers are keyed off Con) will always put points in Con over Str. Gone is the melee wizard archtype, except for RP reasons (in which case they'll be strictly inferior to the wizard who just dumped Str and had a couple more points to bump up an ability which actually mattered).

Errrr... what melee wizard archtype? There has never been such a thing. Wizards have only ever cared about Int, Con, and Dex. Investing into any other stat has been 100% sub-optimal in all previous editions of D&D.*

* specialist wizards in 2e being a possible exception, as I seem to recall they had different stat requirements, depending on spell school.

 

[The Little Raven]

Errrr... what melee wizard archtype?

Yeah, I was slightly confused by that.

Unless he means the "use spells to make the fighter obsolete" wizard, in which case, you aren't investing in Strength anyhow, because your spells are doing all the heavy lifting.

 

[Leatherhead]

IMHO y'all may be looking at this wrong. Perhaps there's no reason to play a smart Fighter, but is "smart Fighter" really your concept? Why must it be a Fighter rather than a Warlord, for example?

A smart Warlord who took the Fighter multi-class feat (itself a waste, but...) and then took the Kensei or Iron Vanguard paragon path would be very Fighter-ish. And his smarts would benefit his whole group.

Cheers, -- N

What if I wished to play a smart Rogue?

 

[Nifft]

Likewise, people in heavy armor have dump-statted Dexterity for the past 8 years. It was encouraged as a dump stat, even. You could have your plate-armored paladin take an 18 Dex, but it was mostly useless.

IMHO all we need are a few feats which make Int useful for melee & ranged dudes.

Wizards can dump Cha / Dex / Con / Wis, but they'll pay for each one with reduced feat access.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

What if I wished to play a smart Rogue?

ALL Rogues are smart! That's why they call us "wiseguys", see?

(But seriously, what game effect do you want?)

Cheers, -- N

 

[The Little Raven]

(But seriously, what game effect do you want?)

I think it's the "scads of skill points" desire, which can easily be replicated by taking Skill Training since feats are so numerous.

 

[see]

1) If you have no Dex- or Int-based powers, Dex is strictly superior to Int, because it gives you every advantage high Int does, plus it improves initiative.

2) If you have Dex-based powers or feats but no Int-based ones, there is no mechanical penalty to using Int as a dump stat. If you have Int-based powers but no Dex-based ones, you do suffer a mechanical penalty (a lower initiative) if you use Dex as a dump stat.

So, the minmax for any character who doesn't use Int-based powers will always be maximizing Dex at the expense of Int, regardless of whether he has any Dex-based powers. On the other hand, a character who uses Int-based powers but doesn't have any Dex-based ones still might have to retain a decent Dex, depending on the importance of initiative.

 

[Leatherhead]

I think it's the "scads of skill points" desire, which can easily be replicated by taking Skill Training since feats are so numerous.

Not really. Skill points help I suppose, but I was aiming more for the concept of a daring outlaw or a vigilante that is supposed to use their brains as often as their agile fighting skills, but not so much their strength of muscle. Kind of like that Swashbuckler/Rogue, or maybe even a "Batman" if you wish to go that far, rather than an sneaky assassin, brutish thug, or snake tongued charmer.

 

[Nifft]

Not really. Skill points help I suppose, but I was aiming more for the concept of a daring outlaw or a vigilante that is supposed to use their brains as often as their agile fighting skills, but not so much their strength of muscle. Kind of like that Swashbuckler/Rogue, or maybe even a "Batman" if you wish to go that far, rather than an sneaky assassin, brutish thug, or snake tongued charmer.

But what in-game effect would you like to achieve? So far you're describing a character that could be played as any class, with any stats. ("See, if I hit this kobold just at the right angle, the rebound takes in into that kobold's head! Two in one stroke! Hit smarter, not harder!" -- a Fighter with Cleave.)

Cheers, -- N