D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

[The Little Raven]

Not really. Skill points help I suppose, but I was aiming more for the concept of a daring outlaw or a vigilante that is supposed to use their brains as often as their agile fighting skills, but not so much their strength of muscle. Kind of like that Swashbuckler/Rogue, or maybe even a "Batman" if you wish to go that far, rather than an sneaky assassin, brutish thug, or snake tongued charmer.

So, what is the game mechanic effect that you want from it? This concept has never had mechanical support in any edition of D&D.

 

[Wolfwood2]

Not really. Skill points help I suppose, but I was aiming more for the concept of a daring outlaw or a vigilante that is supposed to use their brains as often as their agile fighting skills, but not so much their strength of muscle. Kind of like that Swashbuckler/Rogue, or maybe even a "Batman" if you wish to go that far, rather than an sneaky assassin, brutish thug, or snake tongued charmer.

And it would make you feel funny to play a daring outlaw who thinks of clever plans if the number next to "Intelligence" on his stat block says 8? Is that the basic problem?

Because I think a lot of characters like you're talking about could reasonably have a low intelligence in the very limited sense that D&D defines "intelligence". There are aspects to a character's personality, mental ability, and planning capabilities that are not represented in D&D stats and are a lot more dependent on the player.

Frankly, the kind of "brains" you're talking about are really in the realm of clever plans thought up by the player more than any mechanical effect.

 

[Surgoshan]

I think the solution to the problem of Int as a dumpstat is quite simple and easy: make Int give a bonus to Initiative, just like Dex does.

Other than that, it just seems to be a matter of skills (far more are affected by Int than Dex) and feats (there are some that require decent intelligence, but not many, I think).

 

[Enverxis]

You could also make both stats apply to defenses instead of just the highest one, would that make sense?

 

[I'm A Banana]

So, what is the game mechanic effect that you want from it?

I think the general effect is that people want to get a bonus from BOTH high Int and high Dex. In the game mechanics. So that they can feel free to pump up both without Accidental Suck.

To a lesser extent, people also want a low INT to be felt by all characters in the game mechanics.

You get a bonus for both high STR and CON.

You get a bonus for both high WIS and CHA (though it is admittedly less pronounced here).

Unless you're a wizard (and to a lesser extend, a warlord or a warlock), you don't get a bonus for both high DEX and INT.

It's most glaring on the rogue, a class whose archetype has traditionally been "clever and quick." To a lesser extent, it hurts a fighter who wants to play "against type," and any class that doesn't already have a built-in reward for a high Int is marginally dissuaded.

It's actively a bad idea to have that reflected mechanically in a high DEX and a high INT, when you're sacrificing CHA and STR.

The game doesn't adequately fill the archetype, there.

 

[Leatherhead]

But what in-game effect would you like to achieve? So far you're describing a character that could be played as any class, with any stats. ("See, if I hit this kobold just at the right angle, the rebound takes in into that kobold's head! Two in one stroke! Hit smarter, not harder!" -- a Fighter with Cleave.)

Cheers, -- N

I am not quite understanding this "What in-game effect do you want?" question.

Specifically, what do you mean by "effect"? Do you mean a specific powers effect or an overall mechanical theme?

So, what is the game mechanic effect that you want from it? This concept has never had mechanical support in any edition of D&D.

To be fair, in 3.5 there is at least the Combat Expertise tree, it at least implied you could get away with an intelligent melee character. And later on they added the Factotum, which was very close to the concept (by using INT for nearly everything, and having tons of tricks) but not quite. I believe people ended up using that class for alpha striking rather than it's intended purpose.

EDIT: Missed a post and I didn't want three posts in a row.

 

[Leatherhead]

And it would make you feel funny to play a daring outlaw who thinks of clever plans if the number next to "Intelligence" on his stat block says 8? Is that the basic problem?

Because I think a lot of characters like you're talking about could reasonably have a low intelligence in the very limited sense that D&D defines "intelligence". There are aspects to a character's personality, mental ability, and planning capabilities that are not represented in D&D stats and are a lot more dependent on the player.

Frankly, the kind of "brains" you're talking about are really in the realm of clever plans thought up by the player more than any mechanical effect.

I don't think I have ever actually seen anyone say you could just dump INT and act smart anyway before. This is quite shocking to me, I suppose I just like having a characters stats reflect the concept of the character, and having those stats have some mechanical relevance to the character.

 

[Nifft]

I am not quite understanding this "What in-game effect do you want?" question.

Specifically, what do you mean by "effect"? Do you mean a specific powers effect or an overall mechanical theme?

What can you do, that others cannot do? Or what can you do better than they can?

Cheers, -- N

 

[The Little Raven]

It's most glaring on the rogue, a class whose archetype has traditionally been "clever and quick."

What's most glaring to me is that amount of people that think Intelligence means clever, when Wisdom pretty much personifies it since clever people are perceptive and intuitive.

Intelligence is for Wayne the Brain.

Wisdom is for Cugel the Clever.

 

[Nifft]

I don't think I have ever actually seen anyone say you could just dump INT and act smart anyway before. This is quite shocking to me, I suppose I just like having a characters stats reflect the concept of the character, and having those stats have some mechanical relevance to the character.

Consider it a difference between "book learning" and "practical intelligence".

Your low-Int dude will still suffer when it comes time to make a Knowledge Arcana, Religion, or History check.

Cheers, -- N