D&D 4E Obligatory dump stats in 4e: the irrelevance of Intelligence

[Ranmyaku]

Well, here's the thing - if this is the case, I won't be able to make my favourite Third Edition character in Fourth terribly easily. I was quite excited to read about Fourth's fighters, because then Lindy Willian would be getting her chance to shine.

Lindy Willian of Mordent (Strength 16, Dex 14, Int 20, Wis 8) was a corespondent of Dr van Richten, when he was with us, and with the Doctor's passing she has become one of the Core's foremost scholars on Monstres And Theyre Kinde. She is a highly educated woman, and has personally embarked upon dozens of expeditions to seek out, investigate, catalogue, and destroy the creatures of the night. It just so happens that Dame Willian is a plate-armoured knight who likes to get into the thick of things with a sword or a brace of handguns. She's no leader - she has a slight tendency to impulsiveness and absentmindedness that would probably doom anyone actually following her - but rather, offers advice from her voluminous knowledge when she isn't all up in a werewolf's face. As it stands now, though, it seems that there will be an awful lot of feats she'll be spending only on skills.

 

[MindWanderer]

Well, here's the thing - if this is the case, I won't be able to make my favourite Third Edition character in Fourth terribly easily. I was quite excited to read about Fourth's fighters, because then Lindy Willian would be getting her chance to shine.

Lindy Willian of Mordent (Strength 16, Dex 14, Int 20, Wis 8) was a corespondent of Dr van Richten, when he was with us, and with the Doctor's passing she has become one of the Core's foremost scholars on Monstres And Theyre Kinde. She is a highly educated woman, and has personally embarked upon dozens of expeditions to seek out, investigate, catalogue, and destroy the creatures of the night. It just so happens that Dame Willian is a plate-armoured knight who likes to get into the thick of things with a sword or a brace of handguns. She's no leader - she has a slight tendency to impulsiveness and absentmindedness that would probably doom anyone actually following her - but rather, offers advice from her voluminous knowledge when she isn't all up in a werewolf's face. As it stands now, though, it seems that there will be an awful lot of feats she'll be spending only on skills.

I would actually suggest a warlord instead of a fighter for that archetype--anyone who spends as much time in combat "telling people stuff" is very warlord-like. But yeah, it looks like History is the only "knowledge" skill you can pick up as a class skill--although a 3e fighter would have been picking up Knowledge skills cross-class anyway. Arcana, Religion, Nature, and Streetwise are the "knowledges" you'd be missing. Streetwise doesn't really seem up her alley, and you can get one of the other three with a multicassing feat, so it's not horrendously painful.

 

[Leatherhead]

What can you do, that others cannot do? Or what can you do better than they can?

Cheers, -- N

I suppose it would be some kind of rogue that disables more so than others?

What's most glaring to me is that amount of people that think Intelligence means clever, when Wisdom pretty much personifies it since clever people are perceptive and intuitive.

Intelligence is for Wayne the Brain.

Wisdom is for Cugel the Clever.

Consider it a difference between "book learning" and "practical intelligence".

Your low-Int dude will still suffer when it comes time to make a Knowledge Arcana, Religion, or History check.

Cheers, -- N

I have never heard anyone attribute wisdom to cleverness. I was under the impression Intelligence is supposed to be a measure of your ability to reason and solve problems.

 

[Cadfan]

I have never heard anyone attribute wisdom to cleverness. I was under the impression Intelligence is supposed to be a measure of your ability to reason and solve problems.

A character who is cunning is wise. Its been like that for a while.

 

[Ranmyaku]

I would actually suggest a warlord instead of a fighter for that archetype--anyone who spends as much time in combat "telling people stuff" is very warlord-like. But yeah, it looks like History is the only "knowledge" skill you can pick up as a class skill--although a 3e fighter would have been picking up Knowledge skills cross-class anyway. Arcana, Religion, Nature, and Streetwise are the "knowledges" you'd be missing. Streetwise doesn't really seem up her alley, and you can get one of the other three with a multicassing feat, so it's not horrendously painful.

Weeeeeeeell, it wasn't so much tactical advice as pointing out what the horrible gibbering rotting thing du jour is and where to stab it. Ravenloft provided a lovely, lovely feat - University Educated - which made knowledge skills Class skills. Of course, even as an Int 20 human, there weren't nearly enough skill points to cover knowledges.

I had forgotten that knowledge skills were so concise in Fourth, though. If feats are as plentiful as they supposedly are, Skill Training in those three ought to be reasonably reasonable.

 

[Cadfan]

You could also go Int 13, and take Jack of All Trades. It gives you a +2 on all untrained skills. Since the nearest related skill counts as a knowledge skill for any given question, it would help quite a lot. And if you wanted to get really crazy, you could take something like a wizard multiclass, which trains you in Religion, and then you could take Ritual Caster. Which would let you perform out of combat summonings and banishments.

 

[Vikingkingq]

I've understood for a while that Intelligence suggests your education and acquired skill, whereas Wisdom suggests your intuitive and creative thinking power. I think the skills associated with each skill very much indicate this: Wizards have high Intelligence because they study the use of magic in an extremely focused and long-term course of study; moreover, Intelligence affects Arcana (the study of magic and magical lore), History (the mastery of collected works and recall of obscure facts), and Religion (a background in theology and religious literature and practices). All of these skills are acquired knowledges. By contrast, Wisdom affects Dungeoneering/Nature (your ability to notice details of your environment), Healing (your ability to perceive injury and diagnose illness in a patient), Insight/Perception (your ability to pick up on subtle clues and peripheral information, both in human behavior and general physical motion).

 

[DFK!]

I agree that Int has become a dump stat for certain classes, we've seen it begin already in our home group.

However, other classes have different dump stats. To me, this is an improvement over 3e where there wasn't a huge amount of variance in which stat was dumped (usually Cha, it seemed).

 

[Obryn]

It's most glaring on the rogue, a class whose archetype has traditionally been "clever and quick." To a lesser extent, it hurts a fighter who wants to play "against type," and any class that doesn't already have a built-in reward for a high Int is marginally dissuaded.

It's actively a bad idea to have that reflected mechanically in a high DEX and a high INT, when you're sacrificing CHA and STR.

The game doesn't adequately fill the archetype, there.

In the grand history of D&D, 3e was an anomaly in this respect.

It was the first edition where Rogues/Thieves/whatever needed a high Intelligence in order to get the most use out of their thieving skills. Intelligence was an easy dump stat for Thieves in 2e.

I see this as more of a "going back to the roots" as opposed to "destroying 3e's archetypes."

-O

 

[Felon]

A character who is cunning is wise. Its been like that for a while.

Well, this is a matter of semantics. There's "cunning", which connotes instinct, and then there's "clever", which connotes planning and forethought. A wolf, panther, or some other predatory animal might be considered "cunning", but you have to be Lassie or Flipper to be considered "clever".

In general, 3e's definition of Intelligence seemed to cover a general aptitude for acquired learning. Now it seems the D&D has taken a queue from WoW and decided it's chiefly a measure of magical know-how.