Oddest pairings of mechanics, setting, and intended player market?

[innerdude]

Spycraft

I mean, basically the scenario is the same as a lot of the d20-boom RPGs, but Spycraft, which we played a bit, just always struck me and I think eventually the whole group as particularly bizarre in how it all fit together, and worked/didn't work.

Oh god even better and in the same vein:

d20 Modern

. . . that's a bizarre one.

Oh my gosh, d20 Modern is the perfect example.

The two sessions of d20 Modern I ever played were some of the most strange, random, off-putting spurts of gameplay I've ever seen. As you described, it's just this total mishmash of ideas that barely hold together, if at all.

And the funny thing is with Spycraft, is Crafty Games went the exact opposite route with Fantasy Craft and completely retooled the d20 system from the ground up to create what I consider to be the ultimate expression of the D&D 3-era rules. Fantasy Craft is the exact opposite of Spycraft---it's thoroughly elegant, well thought through, highly integrated in its approach to both player and GM mechanics.

 

[aramis erak]

Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game White Wolf known for the World of Darkness, gets the license to write an RPG for a beat 'em up computer game? What the heck is going on there? Actually it turned out to be pretty good. It simulated the fast, medium, heavy punches and kicks with an innovative new mechanic allowing for special moves from the game to be learned. But I don't think there was a huge cross over between people that liked a beat 'em up computer game and White Wolf's traditional WoD audience. If you wanted to play Street Fighter you get out your console, not your 10 sided dice. Still the game itself was pretty good, the new combat system worked really well in a Street Fighter RPG, it just didn't translate as well as the Combat supplement for WoD when they tried to port it back into that setting. WoD storytellers weren't really wanting a hex based minis combat game to break up the flow of their storytelling.

Of the games popular at the time¹, it was one of the best fits to the source... but that source was not the videogames. The game was a movie-tie-in. (There are 3 Streetfighter movies².) Yes, I've run it. Yes, I was aware of the videogames. But the RPG is very much tied to the movies in tone and fluff. In a small irony, the rules were kept in print in a de-IP'd form for a number of years on as World of Darkness: Combat. Oh, and Streetfighters count as awakened avatars in oWoD, Chi-powered special abilities do aggravated damage to other supernaturals.

¹: Major game engines at the time:
Tier 1: AD&D 2E,
Tier 2: WWG Storyteller(old WoD, not new WoD), GDW-house system (T2K2.2/TTNE/DC), GURPS, CoC
Tier 3: AMSH, Warhammer FRP 1E, Hero System 4e, Rolemaster, Non-CoC BRP, FASA-Trek

²: And they were all equally campy and low budget. Fun, but silly.

 

[Bagpuss]

Of the games popular at the time¹, it was one of the best fits to the source... but that source was not the videogames. The game was a movie-tie-in.

Admittedly they came out in the same year, but that's the only connection I can see, all the art work is from the games, no stills from the films. The copyright notice makes no mention of the distributors which it would do if they were involved, even the rules are pretty closely tied to the mechanics of the video games. There very little that makes it a tie-in, the tone and fluff of the movies came from Street Fighter II.

If you were going to do a Movie Tie-in, then WEG Masterbook system would have been the one to go with they had The World of Indiana Jones that year, The World of Tank Girl and Species the following year. Happy to adapt anything to it.

 

[aramis erak]

Admittedly they came out in the same year, but that's the only connection I can see, all the art work is from the games, no stills from the films. The copyright notice makes no mention of the distributors which it would do if they were involved, even the rules are pretty closely tied to the mechanics of the video games. There very little that makes it a tie-in, the tone and fluff of the movies came from Street Fighter II.

If you were going to do a Movie Tie-in, then WEG Masterbook system would have been the one to go with they had The World of Indiana Jones that year, The World of Tank Girl and Species the following year. Happy to adapt anything to it.

I think you are misreading my statement.

The license was acquired during the dev of the second SF movie. It was a license built on the franchise, but the videogames provided very, very little to build upon; the first movie provided more on screen than 3 different incarnations of arcade game. If they had released at the same time, it would have had a much bigger sales presence.

Many movie or TV tie ins avoid live-action footage - each included image is a royalty to the actor, plus tie-ins need either early access or to be laid out after the release. The new SG-1 is all paintings. FFG Star Wars, all paintings. WEG's MIB was almost all new drawings, rather than movie frames. It was a matter of cost savings. Modiphius' Dune and Star Trek Adventures both use paintings, as well. Chameleon Ecclectic also used paintings for The Babylon Project.

Back in the day, WEG Star Wars was mostly new art. Movie frames were few.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Admittedly they came out in the same year, but that's the only connection I can see, all the art work is from the games, no stills from the films. The copyright notice makes no mention of the distributors which it would do if they were involved, even the rules are pretty closely tied to the mechanics of the video games. There very little that makes it a tie-in, the tone and fluff of the movies came from Street Fighter II.

If you were going to do a Movie Tie-in, then WEG Masterbook system would have been the one to go with they had The World of Indiana Jones that year, The World of Tank Girl and Species the following year. Happy to adapt anything to it.

He's just wrong. It had nothing to do with the movies.

Of the games popular at the time¹, it was one of the best fits to the source... but that source was not the videogames. The game was a movie-tie-in.

This literally just not true. It's not in any way, shape or form a "movie tie-in". That term has a specific meaning and that's not it. It's inspired by the games, which have a hell of lot more lore than you think, and did even back in 1994. Sure, you had to be a serious Street Fighter nerd to know it, but some of us were - including people at White Wolf.

Street Fighter: The Storytelling Game White Wolf known for the World of Darkness, gets the license to write an RPG for a beat 'em up computer game? What the heck is going on there? Actually it turned out to be pretty good. It simulated the fast, medium, heavy punches and kicks with an innovative new mechanic allowing for special moves from the game to be learned. But I don't think there was a huge cross over between people that liked a beat 'em up computer game and White Wolf's traditional WoD audience. If you wanted to play Street Fighter you get out your console, not your 10 sided dice. Still the game itself was pretty good, the new combat system worked really well in a Street Fighter RPG, it just didn't translate as well as the Combat supplement for WoD when they tried to port it back into that setting. WoD storytellers weren't really wanting a hex based minis combat game to break up the flow of their storytelling.

There is actually a specific reason it happened.

White Wolf, particularly, it seems, Joshua Gabriel Timbrook, were close with the Capcom people in the US, like actually friends with them. And many WW designers were fans of Street Fighter 2. As such they were able to acquire this licence when Street Fighter was really hot, as an IP, and for a relatively low cost.

This relationship continued a little way, and Capcom were, reportedly, in like 1996 or so, genuinely working a Werewolf-based brawler (not to be confused with Vampire Saviour etc., specifically Werewolf: the Apocalypse). But that didn't pan out. And I think people who were friends with the Capcom lot gradually left WW over the next few years.

 

[Jaeger]

I'll bite...

Mongoose Conan d20, and 5e Adventures in Middle Earth.

HP inflation does not mix well with the tone of LoTR or Conan.

That's right, I said it.

Not that the underlying d20 mechanics couldn't be made to work; but when you keep the per level HP inflation, all you are doing is making a slightly different D&D zero to fantasy superhero game with a different setting veneer.

That being said; People do not seem to mind at all that what they are playing is just D&D with a different setting veneer.

Both lines sold rather well!

 

[aramis erak]

I'll bite...

Mongoose Conan d20, and 5e Adventures in Middle Earth.

HP inflation does not mix well with the tone of LoTR or Conan.

That's right, I said it.

Not that the underlying d20 mechanics couldn't be made to work; but when you keep the per level HP inflation, all you are doing is making a slightly different D&D zero to fantasy superhero game with a different setting veneer.

That being said; People do not seem to mind at all that what they are playing is just D&D with a different setting veneer.

Both lines sold rather well!

There's an old saw that goes, "There's no accounting for taste."

I know of people who like and can rattle off the differences of the Conan d20 to standard 3.x, and ccite that they change the feel enough. Thing is, tho', playing Conan himself isn't what the game's actually about. It's about Hyperborea, and not about Conan himself, so the adaptation's not as bad as it could be. Similar for Modiphius' Conan - you're not playing Conan, you're not working for nor against Conan... you're just In the Hyperborea described in the Conan novels. Same also goes for the old TSR Conan game (using the color chart).

A lot of incongruities can arise when a game is set in a milieu that is written specifically to highlight a particular few characters at their peak.

As for AIME... there is that large swathe of D&D players who will never play anything that isn't D&D. So, for them, AIME. Sadly, that group's as big as or bigger than the ones for TOR... but AIME suffers not only from being Class&Level with boolean skills, but also not being a terribly well written adaptation (in terms of word choice, layout, etc), as well as being a very straightforward "Keep it like 5E" in the HP arena.

Which makes for another... Stargate SG-1 d20 and 5E flavors. Same kind of issue. Still, the 5E version plays well...

 

[Jaeger]

As for AIME... there is that large swathe of D&D players who will never play anything that isn't D&D. So, for them, AIME. Sadly, that group's as big as or bigger than the ones for TOR... but AIME suffers not only from being Class&Level with boolean skills, but also not being a terribly well written adaptation (in terms of word choice, layout, etc), as well as being a very straightforward "Keep it like 5E" in the HP arena.

Oh yes, there is a big market for D&D + Tolkien/Conan/"insert Ip here".

Can't hate the hustle, people got to earn that dollar.

The Symborium rpg d20/5e conversion was a game I was rather enthusiastic about when I heard they were doing it.

I figured they would convert it from a roll under d20, to a roll over, d20 system, and hell, I don't even mind classes or 'level style advancement' added either to entice 5e players to take a look at it.

But guess what they went and gone done... Yup, you got it in one: They added HP every level... and are making it into just another 5e clone with a 'symbroium' setting veneer...

What a waste.

 

[GMMichael]

On a certain level, I look at the core mechanic and think, "Why didn't this thing get more traction in the market???" And then I look at all the mitigating factors and go, "Oh. Yeah. That's why."

Most games are going to look odd if you expect them to be D&D.

I wrote a game for myself, with no official setting, and minimal rules. Pretty odd, considering that I love cool settings (Zweihaender, Tales from the Loop, Final Fantasy d6) and mid-crunch rules (D&D 5e, Numenera, Fantasy A.G.E.). Luckily, my target market plays the game consistently, and will probably pick up the setting book and rules expansions when they debut.