Of Primal and the Barbarian

The barbarian can just end his rage, but why does he want to? The save is a penalty to the ability, not a boon. If you save, you're done raging (until you're bloodied anyway). No barbarian in his *right* mind would actually want to give up the extra damage.

That's kind of muddying the waters of what a "save" is, though. The penalty is really a bonus? He's going to want low saving throws? "No, Jozan, don't bless me! I won't be as ANGRY!" or "Okay, I'm going to go into rage, I'm going to first take off my Cloak of Resistance and my magic armor, so that I won't save against the effect!"

It also has the secondary effect of making the other things that require a save to end more difficult for most barbarians who will want to drop their saving throw scores pretty low.

Which is pretty backwards for a defender -- shouldn't they be able to resist what is thrown at them?

The damage is coming from the right place, the mechanic to end it, though, is wonky.

As to his role as a striker, I point back to (i think) my second post in which I state that he's a combination striker/defender. People try to kill him first (a defender quality) because if they don't, that big ol' axe of his is gonna cut them down (a striker quality). also, making him a defender grants him the HUGE hitpoints he had back in 3.5 without taking anything away. The names I use for his abilities could be changed to more animal focused talents easily enough. Hunters use tactics frequently enough (the daily free move and pack tactics when flanking), but they also try to take out the prey (mark) as quickly as possible to prevent escape.

Wait, people try to kill the Warlord and the Cleric fist because if they don't, the party fights better. People try to kill the Wizard first because if they don't, they get a fireball to the face. People try to kill the rogue first because if they don't, they get a knife in the kidney.

The other defenders -- the fighter, the paladin...people don't try to kill them first. People would love to leave them for last. But the Fighter and the Paladin *make* people try and kill them first.

He can be a striker with high HP. 4e is an exception-based ruleset, am I right? "Strikers get X hp." "The Barbarian is a striker. He gets Y hp!" Rage may also add hp. The balance for a higher hp than normal is a lower AC/Defense value than normal. He gets wallopped more often, but can take more wallops, so the thing's a wash.

Fighters and Paladins don't really take out their marks quickly. Rather, they focus the attention on themselves. A barbarian -- any kind of predatory animal -- really doesn't WANT to be seen by the prey. Wolves use feints and allies. Big cats and crocodiles use stealth and power.

I just can't imagine the barbarian standing still in the front lines while his friends get to kill mooks. He doesn't protect or bolster or hamper or mark. No, no, the barbarian needs to, IMO, act like a predatory animal. He needs to get to the back row, find the vulnerable member (the one with low hp), and attack and kill with a powerfully placed blow.

That is, exactly, what a rogue does.

That is very similar to what a ranger does.

That is very similar to what a warlock does.

A ranger and a warlock do it through ranged attacks. A rogue does it through stealth. A barbarian might be able to do it by picking up people and throwing them out of his way. Or, less HARDCORE, through athletics -- jumps, swings, pounces, trips, fast strikes, wrestlin'....

A barbarian might be able to stand for a few rounds in the front row to cover someone else's retreat, but it seems to me that the entire zeitgeist of the barbarian archetype is one who brings the fight right to your wizard's face and beats it in, while a fighter's is more of a heavy-armor tactical wiz, and a paladin's is more of a beacon of strength.
 

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Well, that sucks. I had a reply typed out and posted it. I guess it didn't hold or something. Anyway, since the thread appears to be slowing down (read: Dying) at this point, I'll post the class in it's entirety. Please review it as it's been discussed and let me know. I was gonna start a playtest with it and the other characters to try and work balance out soon enough.
Barbarian
Role: Defender
Power Source: Primal
Key Abilities: Strength, Constitution, Wisdom
Armor Training: Hide
Weapon Proficiencies: Swords, Axes, Clubs
Bonus to Defenses: +2 Fortitude
Bonus to Attacks: +1 melee
HP per level gained: 8 HP/level
Healing Surges: 6 + Constitution Modifier
Trained Skills: Nature plus three others
Available Skills: Pick three skills from the following list: Athletics, Endurance, Heal, Intimidate, Perception, Thievery
Skill Modifiers: +2 to Perception checks
Build Options: Bear, Boar, and Cat Totem Barbarian
Class Features: Bloodlust, Blood Rage, Primal Challenge, Rage, Tough as Nails

Barbarians are nature’s champions. The tribe and their lands come before anything else in a barbarian’s mind. As skilled hunters, warriors, and sometimes raiders, each barbarian trains with pride to be the greatest amongst his peers.
As a Barbarian, you might be rustic and uncouth. Others may consider you slower than average because you don’t always have the best grasp on society and city life. You’re at home in the grasslands, forests, and other natural environments.
In combat, you’ll generally rush ahead of your party to face down your foe. With brutal force, you cut your way through to more challenging opponents while leaving broken bodies in your wake.

Characteristics: Although you can function without it, rage is a key aspect of your combat prowess. Drop your mark quickly and move on so you can keep going.
Religion: Barbarians often worship the deity most closely tied to their clan or tribe. Regardless of alignment, this often equates to a nature god.
Races: Those who wish to defend their own by any means necessary make great barbarians including Orcs, Elves, and some Dragonborn.

Barbarians often focus on totems to supplement their beliefs while providing a useful benefit in some cases. Strength, Constitution, and Wisdom are the Barbarian’s most important ability scores.

Bear Totem Barbarian: Hit them harder than they hit you. Strength is vital because the more damage you put out, the faster your opponent goes down. Constitution helps greatly if you leave yourself open to gain an advantage. Wisdom is a reasonable third ability score if you want to gain some abilities beyond hack and slash.

Suggested Feat: Weapon Focus (Human Feat: Toughness)
Suggested Skills: Athletics, Endurance, Intimidate, and Nature
Suggested At-Will Powers: Knockback, Bestial Roar
Suggested Encounter Power: Tireless Rage
Suggested Daily Power: Take No Prisoners

Boar Totem Barbarian: If they’re hitting you, they’re not hitting your allies. Constitution is most important to help avoid a terrible fate. Strength helps to better dispose of your enemies. Wisdom is equally useful if you want to fight better rather than harder.

Suggested Feat: Toughness (Human Feat: Human Perseverance)
Suggested Skills: Endurance, Intimidate, Nature, and Perception
Suggested At-Will Powers: Sweeping Blows, Soak
Suggested Encounter Power: Whirlwind Attack
Suggested Daily Power: The Art of War

Cat Totem Barbarian: If you can gain combat advantage, you probably will. Wisdom is best put to use here to keep your mark guessing. Strength helps setup and execution of your daily power while Constitution provides additional cushion to the blows you take.
Suggested Feat: Expert Tactician (Human Feat: Skill Training (Insight))
Suggested Skills: Heal, Nature, Perception, Thievery
Suggested At-Will Powers: Decisive Blow, Disarming Blow
Suggested Encounter Power: Tactical Advantage
Suggested Daily Power: Sundering Blow

All Barbarians share these class features.
Rage: Once during combat, you may enter a rage as a free action. While enraged, your attacks deal extra damage to marked opponents. As you advance in level, your extra damage increases. You must save against Rage at the beginning of each round. A successful save ends this effect. You take a -5 penalty to this save.
Level Rage Damage
1st - 10th +2d6
11th - 20th +3d6
21st - 30th +5d6

Primal Challenge: When you hit a foe in combat, that foe becomes marked and you can deal rage damage to him. Only one mark can be on an enemy at any time, and new marks supersede old.

Bloodlust: Against Bloodied targets, you deal an additional 3 damage with each attack. At 11th level, you deal an additional 6 damage. At 21st level, you deal an additional 9 damage.

Blood Rage: When you are bloodied in combat, you immediately gain all benefits of rage and require no saving throw to end the effect.

Tough as Nails: You gain 1 additional hit point each time you would gain an even level.

Your powers, called talents, are instinctual by nature. You draw upon them through a combination of innate ability, focused training, and strong ties to the land or your heritage.
Your powers often benefit from Strength of Body or Will.

At-Will Powers
Bestial Roar:
Barbarian Attack 1
You scream with such ferocity that foes question their intent.
• At-Will Primal, Rage
• Minor Action
• Requirement: You must be raging and trained in Endurance
• Target: One Creature within Con squares
• Attack: Endurance vs. Will
• Hit: Target is marked by you.

Decisive Blow:
Barbarian Attack 1
Your successful attack allows your ally an opening.
• At-Will Primal, Weapon
• Standard Action
• Requirement: You must be flanking with at least one ally
• Target: One Marked Creature you flank
• Attack: Wis vs. Will
• Hit: 1[W] + Str and your flanking ally can make an immediate basic attack.

Disarming Blow:
Barbarian Attack 1
You strike the opponent’s hand, causing him to drop his weapon out of reflex
• At-Will Primal, Weapon
• Standard Action
• Target: One Marked Creature
• Attack: Str vs. Reflex or Str vs. Fortitude
• Hit: 1[W] + Str and your mark drops his held item.
• Special: If the item is held in 2 hands, your mark gets a +2 to his Fortitude

Knockback:
Barbarian Attack 1
Armor doesn’t even cushion your bone crushing swings
• At-Will Primal, Weapon
• Standard Action
• Target: One Marked Creature
• Attack: Str vs. Reflex
• Hit: 1[W] + Str and you push your mark back 1 square. Increase damage to 2[W] + Str at 21st level.
• Special: If you are raging, increase your rage damage by one die category.

Soak:
Barbarian Utility 1
You let blows rain in; each bolstering your resolve and kindling the fire within.
• At-Will Primal
• Minor Action
• Effect: For the duration of the round, foes blow your Fortitude instead of your AC
• Boar Totem: You gain a +1 to your Fortitude Defense

Sweeping Blows:
Barbarian Attack 1
You can lay down several foes at once.
 At-will Primal, weapon
 Standard Action
 Target: Up to 3 adjacent enemies within reach
 Attack: Str vs. AC
 Hit: 1[W] + Str
 
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Encounter Powers
Tactical Advantage
Barbarian Utility 1
You leave yourself open long enough to help your party.
• Encounter Primal, Reliable
• Move Action
• Target: One Marked Creature
• Attack: Wis vs. Will
• Hit: You grant your mark combat advantage. Your mark grants your allies Combat Advantage. These effects last until the beginning of your next round.
• Special: If you have Expert Tactician, your mark grants you Combat Advantage also.

Tireless Rage
Barbarian Utility 1
Your fury burns unimpeded by the need for rest
• Encounter Primal
• Free Action
• Effect: If you would succeed to stop your rage, you fail instead.

Whirlwind
Barbarian Attack 1
You go into a flurry, striking everything you can reach.
• Encounter Primal, Weapon
• Standard Action
• Target: Burst; All within reach
• Attack: Str vs. Reflex
• Hit: 1 [W] + Str and target is prone
• Miss: Target is prone

Daily Powers
The Art of War
Barbarian Utility 1
Position is the key to any battle.
• Per Day Primal
• Immediate Action (Interrupt)
• Effect: You may shift a number of squares up to your move

Sundering Blow
Barbarian Attack 1
You could find the weak point in a block of stone.
• Per Day Primal, Weapon
• Standard Action
• Requirement: Target must be visibly wearing armor, whether natural or otherwise.
• Target: One Marked Creature
• Attack: Str vs. AC
• Hit: Your mark takes a penalty to AC equal to your Str for the rest of the encounter.
• Special: If you’re raging, double the penalty to AC.

Take No Prisoners
Barbarian Attack 1
Wanted Dead or Alive is a foreign concept to you.
• Per Day Primal, Weapon
• Move Action
• Target: One Marked Creature
• Effect: Your next basic attack against your mark is a critical attack.
 

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