Of Primal and the Barbarian

[Remathilis]

Psionic Gifts, Primal Rites, Shadow Manipulations

DC

I'll go with primal rites, but you gotta have Psionic DISCIPLINES and Shadow MYSTERIES, if there is any continuity left...

 

[Dark080matter]

I love all the ideas here, but I would caution everyone that before we postulate various disconnected theories about how Rage or Totemic Rites would actually work, we have to consider their place in the framework of a greater Primal power source.

As we know, Arcane and Divine and even to some extent Martial characters have slightly different twists that they put into a basic framework of the unified Level progression of At-Will/Encounter/Daily Powers. The wizard still maintains a form of "micro-Vancian" spellcasting by having more total Daily powers than other classes will, but has to choose which of these Dailys he will prepare into the same number of "Slots" that the other classes will have at equal levels (we haven't yet seen any examples of the Warlock doing something similar, but based on the flavor of a Vestige pact I bet we will see similar mechanics in the final version ie. some kind of Daily choice that give them differing bonuses/powers for the rest of the day). The Divine classes get a wide pool of extra Encounter powers (in addition to multiple uses of Lay on Hands and Healing Word) that are based on a concept "Divine Channeling" and seem to be a throwback to the old mechanics of "Spontaneous Conversion" and the Cleric's infinite knowledge of his spell pool. Martial classes (well, the Fighter at least) get things like Reliable powers that further alter the basic formula of how Attack and Utility Powers work.

Based on this trend, I think it would be hasty of us to try to throw together (well, speculate upon) new class features without considering how these features might fit into a greater overall picture: the Power Source as a whole.

Consider this passage from Races & Classes, page 15:

“We are also free to create bigger differences between classes without worrying about straining credibility. A class like the wu jen or the hexblade might use a completely new and different type of magic, allowing us to reinvent the ground rules rather than use what has come before. Since those classes clearly use magic in a different manner when compared to a wizard, we shelve them under a new power source, build a system of magic that works for their needs, and create spells tuned to them rather than simply use the 3E wizard/sorcerer spell list.”

It is for this reason that Ironblue and I made a thread in the Wizards 4e Rules Boards based on this understanding that attempts to reason how the Shadow and Primal power sources might work. Rather than just stop there and let you check that out though (a "Cold Call" if you will), I'll drop you a teaser of what our ideas led to. Here's my conception of how a Barbarian might approach the system of Totemic Aspects and Rages, with a comparison Power from a more "Shape-shifting" oriented class (no points for guessing what that might be ) for comparison and contrasting:

Bear Totem Class Feature - Totem
Encounter [] Primal
Minor Action, Personal
Duration: Encounter
You gain the following template: +2 grappling bonus, +1d6 bonus weapon critical dice, +10 temporary Hit points
Your attack powers with the "Bite" keyword are at +1 to Hit.

Whirling Frenzy Class Feature - Rage
Encounter [] Primal
Minor Action, Personal
Duration: Encounter
You gain the following template: +2 AC and you may now use a Minor action to gain a single Standard melee attack, once per turn. You may no longer use social skills for the duration.

Panther Shape Class Feature - Wildshape
Encounter [] Primal
Minor Action, Personal
Duration: Encounter
You gain the following template: +2 Reflex, 2 square bonus to speed, you may Shift as a Minor action, and you gain a +2 power bonus to Attacks with the "Claw" keyword. You also may no longer cast spells for the duration.

These are just a few examples of how a larger Primal power source mechanic might work. For more examples of these unified power source mechanics (complete with similar thoughts on the Shadow power source!) and also the full details of the mechanical and conceptual reasoning Ironblue and I used to reach our conclusions, check out this Thread!

 

[DandD]

Sorta like Cúchulainn Warp Frenzy:

The description of that warp-spasm sounds a little bit too monstrous for your average D&D hero. I rather imagine monsters becoming like that. :/

 

[malcolm_n]

However, I'm pretty sure something called "power attack" will be given to the fighter or perhaps made a feat in the first PH, as opposed to waiting for the barbarian

How about Knockback? Any other naming convention maybe?

This does not seem right to me. Marking abilities suggest something tactical while being a barbarian suggests something far more offensive and instinctual. When I think of a barbarian I think of mobility - charging, etc.

I dont think Conan would wait a target to attack him!

I agree whole-heartedly. There is more to the barbarian than what I've shown so far, I just didn't want to overload anybody. Here're 2 good examples of him not being static. The first lets you setup a charge with rage, while the second actually moves you to a better fighting position.

Bestial Roar:
Barbarian Attack 1
You scream with such ferocity that foes question their intent.
• At-Will Primal, Rage
• Minor Action
• Requirement: You must be raging and trained in Endurance
• Target: One Creature within Con squares
• Attack: Endurance vs. Will
• Hit: Target is marked by you.

The Art of War
Barbarian Utility 1
Position is the key to any battle.
• Per Day Primal
• Immediate Action (Interrupt)
• Effect: You may shift a number of squares up to your move

____________________________________________

One thing I would like to see when we start reaching Paragon and Epic levels with the Barbarian are much more supernatural abilities show through, that reveal his animalistic, basic side as well as his sheer physical ability to change his body into a force of power.

We have even less information beyond level 1 (except monsters) so I couldn't even begin to think of stuff like this.
____________________________________________

Post by Dark080Matter

LOL, that thread inspired me to take the plunge and post my ideas here. I didn't want to crowd yours with near-offtopic conversation and didn't want the others on those boards to have to contend with 2+ threads on the primal source. As to the thread/powers, They're good, but they seem too much book keeping (a 4e no-no). Am I bear form this time? Cat? What are my bonuses again? We just started for the night, what was i when we left off? Stuff most long-time players can keep track of, but newer players/dm's have to work at.

Primal kinda feels like it could either have it's own fresh new mechanic, or be a conglomeration power, where if something feels good to throw in, do it. That's the thing about instinct. It doesn't take the same form within everybody, why should it have exactly the same mechanic for the druid/barbarian/etc...? This falls again to simplicity. Why require players to learn multiple rules systems (a throwback to 3.5) just because they want to play different classes/multiclass?

 

[Dark080matter]

LOL, that thread inspired me to take the plunge and post my ideas here. I didn't want to crowd yours with near-offtopic conversation and didn't want the others on those boards to have to contend with 2+ threads on the primal source. As to the thread/powers, They're good, but they seem too much book keeping (a 4e no-no). Am I bear form this time? Cat? What are my bonuses again? We just started for the night, what was i when we left off? Stuff most long-time players can keep track of, but newer players/dm's have to work at.

Primal kinda feels like it could either have it's own fresh new mechanic, or be a conglomeration power, where if something feels good to throw in, do it. That's the thing about instinct. It doesn't take the same form within everybody, why should it have exactly the same mechanic for the druid/barbarian/etc...? This falls again to simplicity. Why require players to learn multiple rules systems (a throwback to 3.5) just because they want to play different classes/multiclass?

I'm not really following the complexity problem... why should it be more complex for a Player to keep track of which Form (of which only one can be active at a time) a player has taken than, just as an example, what enemy their Quarry/Curse/Mark is on? Consider that the Defender characters could have potentially infinite Marked enemies. What about the poor Wizard who has to remember which spell he prepared for his Daily?

The Form system I proposed consists of Encounter-based powers that simply allow a simple framework for the character to switch up the form of their Rage/Totem/Shape/Aspect every Encounter (with a few exceptions of Sustain: Minor for the particularly potent powers), and by making the vast majority of these powers per-Encounter themselves they involve the exact same amount of book-keeping that the Divine characters have in 4e with their Channeling powers.

Would you say that a system like Polymorph or Wildshape would be less complex? Where any specific power can have a whole range of different permutations? Or should we make a single basic Rage/Shape/Totem aspect that is tied directly into a Classes' basic Build Features and prevents expansion in further releases? That seems to stifle differentiation among different characters of the same Build, and would limit a Barbarian to using the same basic Rage every encounter, over and over ad infinitum... That doesn't sound very 'instinctual' or interesting to me.

As for your 2nd point, I strongly disagree, no Power Source should ever be designed as a "if it feels good, do it" conglomerate system... that's what happened to 3e and 3.5, there was no balance between systems because different spell systems were designed as a single unit, seemingly without reference to external balancing against the other systems in the game. And even within Arcane and Divine there was little real agreement between classes (the Arcane classes all learned/scribed new spells differently, the Divine classes had various different types of Spontaneous Conversion and Spell Preparation that rarely agreed). I do not think that repeating this implementation for the Primal power source is a good idea based on that example.

The way I see it my proposed system is not in fact a reinvention of the Power system at all: and certainly no more than the DDXP Divine characters forced their players to "relearn" rules system with the Divine Channeling class features, or the guy who rolled the Wizard felt silly having to choose from two Daily power when no one else does?

The designers have explicitly stated that Power Sources feature distinct mechanical differentiation, they are NOT just fluffy differences. And besides, is it so wrong to look for ways that these classes can operate on similar trends, even while maintaining their flavor and separate expertises?

We haven't seen the multiclassing rules, so I think it's premature to speculate on how that will turn out before Wizards shows us the Core book releases... then at least we'll have the example of seeing how a Wizard/Cleric (How about a Fighter/Warlock?) will work out. Based on what we've seen of Power Source differences, I don't feel that the systems Ironblue and I proposed are really at all more complex compared to how Arcane, Divine, and Martial already fiddle with the basic framework in their own unique ways. Presumably they have already been configured so that multi-classing "works" without causing a clash of Power Source mechanics.

LOL, that thread inspired me to take the plunge and post my ideas here.

Yeah... and it looks like you made the right choice, because the thread Ironblue and I made is dying in obscurity over in the Wizards forums... :\

Well different forum atmospheres and such.... I hope it won't go unnoticed for too much longer though (it's only been 1 day after all!). Must think Happy Thoughts!

Anyway despite my differences of opinion, I wish you the best of luck with this thread! You definitely put some thought into it all. And send me some of that luck on the side too....



And please, if anybody finds this debate compelling, come over to the Wizards forum and post there as well! I'd be most grateful to anyone who does so.

 

[malcolm_n]

I guess when we look at the old system we see two different things, because the way I look at it my proposed system is not in fact a reinvention of the Power system at all: and certainly no more than the DDXP Divine characters forced their players to "relearn" rules system with the Divine Channeling class features, or the guy who rolled the Wizard felt silly having to choose a Daily power when no one else does?

The designers have explicitly stated that Power Sources feature mechanical differentiation, they are Not just fluffy differences. And besides, is it so wrong to look for ways that these classes can operate on similar trends, even while maintaining their flavor and separate expertises?

I am glad that with the little information out there, we can agree to disagree. I see your point, though, now that I better understand the powers you speak of. I read them again and they wouldn't be too hard to pull off. Kudos to your swaying explanation and good luck with that thread.

Back on topic, I would like to back up a moment to my definition of the primal source. It more closely relates to instinctual behavior and animal tactics, whether they be trained (the barbarian), inherent (the sorcerer maybe?) or passed down to select followers (the druid). However this works out mechanically would be just fine with me; but since we have no large force of information (and mostly because I really enjoy toying with abilities), I'm running with what I've written up. As i'll state time and again, feedback of all kinds is appreciated. to keep things rolling, here's an ability i felt would be fairly controversial, but compared to other per day abilities wouldn't be game breaking.

Take No Prisoners
Barbarian Attack 1
Wanted Dead or Alive is a foreign concept to you.
• Per Day Primal, Weapon
• Move Action
• Target: One Marked Creature
• Effect: Your next basic attack against your mark is a critical attack.

Two factors here I don't quite know yet, but made assumptions based on some 3.5 info. 1) Rage damage probably wouldn't crit with the basic attack damage, but would apply if the target is marked. 2) The general consensus is daily powers generally deal 3[W] Damage so trading an average (greataxe) 19.5 damage with a chance to miss for a 12 damage guarantee once per day wouldn't be too harsh.

 

[Mercule]

I'll go with primal rites, but you gotta have Psionic DISCIPLINES and Shadow MYSTERIES, if there is any continuity left...

Sounds good. Plus, it leaves primal GIFTS open, which doesn't have the "sounds like ritual" issue.

 

[tresson]

Sounds good. Plus, it leaves primal GIFTS open, which doesn't have the "sounds like ritual" issue.

So would it be 'Ki Mastery' then?

 

[I'm A Banana]

Hmm...

Let me chime in with an "I prefer the Barbarian as a striker!" line.

Extra damage...give them back their mobility from 3e...speed...power...a rogue uses stealth to get to the back lines and deal damage. A Barbarian activates his rage, uses his HP to soak up the attacks, and then just wades into your center line, knowing he'll be able to reach you with his axe before your hundred warriors can cut him down with their hundred swords....

From the primal source, they gain the speed of the cheetah, the power of a lion, the cunning of a fox...

Think about how most predators in the wild take down their prey. They're not defending anything. They're stalking, using speed, using cunning, using sheer power to take down the weakest member of the herd with one savage leap.

Sounds like a striker to me!

But the rage is spot-on for that. I'm not a fan of the "save ends, -5 to the save" thing. I'd prefer to have the barbarian just be able to *end* his rage. Requiring a save sounds too iffy for something that should be the meat-and-potatoes of the class.

 

[malcolm_n]

Hmm...

Let me chime in with an "I prefer the Barbarian as a striker!" line.

Extra damage...give them back their mobility from 3e...speed...power...a rogue uses stealth to get to the back lines and deal damage. A Barbarian activates his rage, uses his HP to soak up the attacks, and then just wades into your center line, knowing he'll be able to reach you with his axe before your hundred warriors can cut him down with their hundred swords....

From the primal source, they gain the speed of the cheetah, the power of a lion, the cunning of a fox...

Think about how most predators in the wild take down their prey. They're not defending anything. They're stalking, using speed, using cunning, using sheer power to take down the weakest member of the herd with one savage leap.

Sounds like a striker to me!

But the rage is spot-on for that. I'm not a fan of the "save ends, -5 to the save" thing. I'd prefer to have the barbarian just be able to *end* his rage. Requiring a save sounds too iffy for something that should be the meat-and-potatoes of the class.

The barbarian can just end his rage, but why does he want to? The save is a penalty to the ability, not a boon. If you save, you're done raging (until you're bloodied anyway). No barbarian in his *right* mind would actually want to give up the extra damage.

From the Class features:
Blood Rage: When you are bloodied in combat, you immediately gain all benefits of rage and require no saving throw to end the effect.
Tough as Nails: You gain 1 additional hit point each time you would gain an even level.

As to his role as a striker, I point back to (i think) my second post in which I state that he's a combination striker/defender. People try to kill him first (a defender quality) because if they don't, that big ol' axe of his is gonna cut them down (a striker quality). also, making him a defender grants him the HUGE hitpoints he had back in 3.5 without taking anything away. The names I use for his abilities could be changed to more animal focused talents easily enough. Hunters use tactics frequently enough (the daily free move and pack tactics when flanking), but they also try to take out the prey (mark) as quickly as possible to prevent escape.