Offsetting the loss of schools of magic

[guntheory]

Greetings all,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have a question that I would like to pose for discussion, opinions, and suggestions. I am developing a wizard college for my home-brewed campaign world. One of the particulars of the realm where the college is based is that it forbids the use of the necromancy, conjuration, and evocation schools of magic (for various reasons tied to the realm's history).

At any rate, this means that students who attend the college are not allowed to study from those schools. Thus, when they graduate as specialists of their chosen school, they are effectively forbidden from casting from three schools; however, in the rules presented in the PH this can be a little severe of a punishment.

What I'm looking for are ideas for balancing this change to the wizard class specialists...

Any suggestions?

guntheory
www.thetan.us

 

[twjensen]

Not to be obtuse, but what are wizards supposed to do in combat? Cast expeditious retreat and run away? The schools of magic have a "power level" as detailed on PHB page 58. Conjuration and Evocation are the most powerful, then Transmutation, etc.. Banning BOTH of the high powered schools? And then adding Necromancy just because?

Consider banning just one school instead. Then all wizards must be specialists compatible with the banned school. For instance, if you ban Necromancy then wizards have the following choices of specialization:

Abjuration: also bans Divination
Conjuration: also bans two other schools of the player's choice
Divination: no further restriction
Enchantment: also bans Divination
Evocation: also bans two other schools of the player's choice
Illusion: also bans Divination
Transmutation: also bans two other schools of the player's choice.

[edit] You could also allow the players to cast whatever they want, but keeping in mind that some spells are illegal. Offsetting that shouldn't be as difficult [/edit]

 

[Mr Fidgit]

you could also create specialist wizards from that college normally, and simply say that spells from those schools are unavailable (and banned).

this could mean that a PC wizard, traveling in another realm, could still aquire a spell from one those schools (as long as its not from his banned school), but there would be consequences if he ever used it and was caught (by whomever has banned those spells in his homeland)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Note that this college produces absolutely no war mages (IMB: war mages = guys with spells that say something like "xdy z damage"). The best you can have is a battlemage (IMB: a wizard that buff's his power via spells and then enters melee)

Are only wizards of this college forbidden to use the three mentioned schools or is it something that affects the whole realm? Is it only wizards or sorcerers and bards as well? What about divine spellcasters?

If it's the whole realm, consider that many monsters are much tougher to fight than before.

If it's only wizards, then sorcerers will be much more combat-oriented than wizards.

If it's arcane casters, than the divine casters will actually outshine them in everything (because doing damage is the domain of the arcane guys, and clerics are on paar in the other fields).

If it's only that single college, you have to pep up the specialist wizards, since all will be barred from three strong schools, which usually is several times the restriction they used to have. So you either make them specialists in more than one school or increase the benefits of specialisation.

Abjurer: Gets two abjuration slots and the bonuses in conjunction with abjuration (like spellcraft checks) are tripled

Divination: three div slots, bonuses are tripled.

Enchanter: Two enchantment slots, bonuses are tripled

Illusionist: Two enchantment slots, bonuses are tripled

Transmuter: Two transmutation slots, bonuses are doubled.

If you want to go the way of multi-specialists, they are two ways: the strong and the weak way:
Strong way: Either Transmutation and Divination or two of the following schools are your specialist schools: Abjuration, Enchantment, Illusion.
Weak way: Either Transmutation or Divination and one of the following schoosl are your specialist schools: Abjuration, Enchantment, Illusion.

Those considerations base on the fact that the specialists have to take restrictions that equal between two (transmuter), two and a half (abjurer, enchanter, illusionist) or three (diviner) options of forbidden schools.



Another way is that you create a Prestige Class available to students of the college. Wizards would be specialists as in the PHB (except that they all have evocation, conjuration and necromancy as forbidden schools) and qualify for the PrC quite early. The PrC should be pretty strong to make up for the wizards' considerable power loss!


Personally, I don't think it's a good Idea to ban those schools.

 

[Wes Nicholson]

Greetings returned. Occasional lurker, first time poster.

I may have an idea to help balance your wizard-specialist change. First I'll step back and make a general observation.

The rules regarding prohibited school(s) in the SRD seem too wordy by far. I believe those rules could be stated concisely as:

* Each of the eight schools of magic has a point value associated with it
describing the level of power of that school relative to the other schools.
To specialize in one school, a wizard must select a prohibited school
or schools whose total point value equals or exceeds the point value of
the chosen school. Those point values are:

school...........point value
============================
Conjuration...........6
Evocation.............6
Transmutation.........6
Abjuration............3
Enchantment...........3
Illusion..............3
Divination............2
Necromancy............2

(An analysis that lays out a case for this rule is included below, at the
end of this post.)

Using the new structure of the prohibited-school rule given above as a tool,
some options I see are:

1) One could claim that since the college in question bans necromancy, conjuration,
and evocation (a point value of 14), a wizard specializing in no more than
14 points' worth of the other schools would be somewhat balanced.

2) A clear problem with #1 is that the additional spells per level per day
become ridiculously unbalancing (at +4 spells per level per day). The original
phrasing of the extra-spell rule is:

* The specialist can prepare one additional spell (of the school selected
as a specialty) per spell level each day

Issues of balance look a lot better with this alternate phrasing:

* The specialist can prepare one additional spell (of ANY school selected
as a specialty) per spell level each day

3) If #2 is still a problem, you could back off on the points' worth of
the other schools that you allow specialization in. "No more than 8 or 9
points' worth", for example, would allow for meaningful additional specialization,
while providing for some "niche" roles within the college (since the
specializations of members of the college would have less overlap).
[This seems roughly equivalent to the "Weak Way" proposed by KaeYoss above.]



Out of curiosity, why would these schools be forbidden? Does the college
have an ethical quandary with them? If so, why?



==============================================
Analysis

Here I just plug the numbers into the equations implied by the SRD
prohibited-school rule as seen through the lens of the new phrasing above.


Abjuration: To become an abjurer, a wizard must select a prohibited school
or schools from the following choices:
(1) either Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, or Transmutation; or
3 <= 6, 3, 6, 3, or 6
(2) both Divination and Necromancy.
3 <= (2+2)

Conjuration: To become a conjurer, a wizard must select a prohibited school
or schools from one of the following choices:
(1) Evocation;
6 <= 6
(2) any two of the following three schools: Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion;
6 <= (3+3)
(3) Transmutation, or
6 <= 6
(4) any three schools.
6 <= (2+2+3) [minimum point value possible for a choice of three schools]

Divination: To become a diviner, a wizard must select
any other single school as a prohibited school.
2 <= 2 [minimum point value possible for a choice of one school]

Enchantment: To become an enchanter, a wizard must select a prohibited school
or schools from the following choices:
(1) either Abjuration, Conjuration, Evocation, Illusion, or Transmutation; or
3 <= 3, 6, 6, 3, or 6
(2) both Divination and Necromancy.
3 <= (2+2)

Evocation: To become an evoker, a wizard must select a prohibited school
or schools from one of the following choices:
(1) Conjuration;
6 <= 6
(2) any two of the following three schools: Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion;
6 <= (3+3)
(3) Transmutation; or
6 <= 6
(4) any three schools.
6 <= (2+2+3) [minimum point value possible for a choice of three schools]

Illusion: To become an illusionist, a wizard must select a prohibited school
or schools from the following choices:
(1) either Abjuration, Conjuration, Enchantment, Evocation, or Transmutation; or
3 <= 3, 6, 3, 6, or 6
(2) both Divination and Necromancy.
3 <= (2+2)

Necromancy: To become a necromancer, a wizard must select
any other single school as a prohibited school.
2 <= 2 [minimum point value possible for a choice of one school]

Transmutation: To become a transmuter, a wizard must select a prohibited school
or schools from one of the following choices:
(1) Conjuration;
6 <= 6
(2) Evocation;
6 <= 6
(2) any two of the following three schools: Abjuration, Enchantment, and Illusion; or
6 <= (3+3)
(4) any three schools.
6 <= (2+2+3) [minimum point value possible for a choice of three schools]

 

[Xeriar]

14, there's only 14 left. To summarize, by banning conjuration, evocation and necromancy, you remove half of a normal wizard's power.

Even more so, I don't think there is a real damage-dealing spell that doesn't belong to one of those schools. I don't think you could really balance it - there is no point in playing one in a game where magical damage-dealing is remotely important (as they cannot magically do damage, or summon creatures).

To balance it, you get abusively powerful social characters, essentially uber-witches with all the transmutation, enchantment and divination running around. The only way to damage someone is to get them to run into an abjuration ward.

Illusions are a bit of an exception with Shadow Magic, but when what they mimic is so thoroughly banned, you don't wanna be mimicing it.

 

[Technik4]

Feasible

I don't think its absurd, in fact its a nice challenge.

First, I assume that this is just a special college, as other people said, wizards may secretely get spells that are "banned" from the college. This allows for intrigue. However, any specialist wizard from the college would probably have to ban at least one of those schools banned.

So, benefits? Well, its a college obviously. I'm sure that a 10% reduction in item creation feat prices wouldn't be unreasonable. Other colleges also give an extra spell/level for the wizard to write for free. Similarly, here are a few feats:

Shield of Ignorance [General]
You are protected by that which you do not understand.
Requirements: Must be banned from a school of wizardry (either by way of specializing or specific wizard schools).
Benefit: You gain a +2 saving throw bonus against spells from your banned school.

Opposite Counterspell [General]
You counter spells of opposing schools.
Requirements: 5 ranks in Knowledge [Arcana]
Benefit: When counterspelling, instead of using the exact spell you are trying to counter, you may use a spell of the opposing school that is one or more levels higher than the target spell.

Specialist Artisan [General]
You are especially skilled at putting certain spells into items.
Requirement: Must be a specialist wizard
Benefit: When determining XP and raw materials for creating items with a spell requirement that is from your specialist school, multiply the base price by 75%.
Special: This feat does not stack with any other feat which reduces item creation costs.

And here's a new take on an old spell, courtesy of the college:

Minor Globe of Arcane Repellant
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 5 ft.
Area: 5 ft. radius spherical emanation, centered on you
Duration: 1 min./level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

An immobile, orange sphere surrounds you and excludes all evocations, conjurations, and necromancies of up to 1st level. The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the minor globe of arcane repellant. Such spells fail to affect you. This includes spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from deices. However any type of spell may be cast through or out of the globe.

Material Component: A fresh orange peel.


All in all, I would probably enjoy playing a constrained specialist like one from that college. Abj/Rog could be a powerful combo, esp if you can score some cheaper item costs. There are more (so many more) things you can do with wizardry than blow things up, I wish people would remember that.

Technik

 

[Wes Nicholson]

I've got a clarification regarding my previous post, but it's a tad
involved so it may not be generally interesting. But in case
somebody is interested...


The point values for the given schools work, but they're not
the only ones that work. If the point values associated with
each schools are expressed:

point value.....school
============================
Z.....Conjuration, Evocation, or Transmutation
Y.....Abjuration, Enchantment, or Illusion
X.....Divination or Necromancy

Then (X,Y,Z) = (2,3,6) works. But so do (1,2,4) and (2,4,8).
Any set of (X,Y,Z) would be valid, so long as they satisfy these
equations:

x <= y <= 2x
y <= z <= 2z
z <= y + 2x


Now, if these point values just provide a quicker way to look at the prohibited-school rule, then (2,3,6) are just fine (as are (1,2,4), etc.) -- one could just pick a set of point values, plug them in, and start making specialist wizards.

On the other hand, these formulae do provide an interesting means of quantifying changes to the rules. For example, if a particular school of magic in one's campaign becomes more or less powerful (by addition or subtraction of spells from the SRD
spell lists), one could adjust these numbers accordingly. It is possible to conceive of a world in which evocation is so limited (by the DM0 that it becomes a 3 or 2 point school (a "Y-class" or
"X-class" school).

It might also be an interesting exercise to think about the (X,Y,Z) that people feel are most representative, or a more fine-grained quantification of the relative power levels of the various schols. Is Conjuration a 32, Enchantment a 22, and Divination a 13?


Well, maybe not too interesting.

 

[Wes Nicholson]

Re: Offsetting the loss of schools of magic


More ideas on how to balance this class, this time of the trivial sort.

How about more skill points? If the wizards of the resulting college are really toothless, maybe they could have 8 skill points per level. If it's culturally appropriate for your college, maybe you could toss in a few cross-class or unavailable skills as class skills (like Hide or Move Silently if the college is amenable to the sneaky arts).

Or maybe more feats? A bonus metamagic feat (or two)? Again, maybe some feat (or feat progression) that would be culturally appropriate to the college? Maybe they all get toughness.

If you think they're really toothless, maybe bump them up to d6 per level, or give them a better BAB, or better saves (again, if culturally appropriate).

You know: general balance tweaks.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Welcome to the posting community!

I've got an alternative suggestion for you.

The prohibitions remind me very much of the "Shadow Weave" prohibitions from Forgotten Realms.

These people obviously focus on Enchantments and Illusions as their main "offensive" spells. You could make their spells more difficult to detect, more difficult to unravel, more difficult to resist (although that is already seen in specialisation). You could allow them special feats akin to the Shadow Weave feats from FRCS.

You could give them reduced cost metamagic on any of their spells which they can cast... a -1 level on all metamagic would make these very attractive even without any boom spells.

Regards,