Oh noes .. more Daggermaster cheese? (Warlock)

[drquestion]

Daggermaster doesn't say "attack with a dagger". It just says "You score critical hits with a dagger on a roll of 18-20". And, anyway, you ARE using the dagger to attack with - that's what an Implement is.

I'm not sure I agree. When you use a spell, you're attacking with the spell. The implement just aids that. Note that you don't need an implement to use a spell.

 

[Lucariell]

And when you use a exploit you're attacking with the exploit. The weapon
just aids that. ....heh, cheep shot probably, but it felt like a to perfect opportunity to pass up

 

[Dizlag]

This is a very interesting discussion and being a DM, I'm curious about the ruling other DMs would make on this as well.

Reading the Pact Blade magic item, under "Special" it says you don't get your weapon proficiency bonus to the attack roll when using it as an implement. That to me says you're not using it as a Weapon and therefore not doing weapon damage, just the spell damage.

On the other hand, if we look at this another way where "Specific Beats General" ... the general rule is an implement and you use an implement to cast spells. The specific rule is "Daggermasters" score a critical with daggers on a 18-20 and would therefore trump the implement rule.

What do you all think?

Dizlag

 

[Flash_Plasma]

as a DM: I'd let it stand. Why punish someone for creative multiclassing, even if it is a bit MAD?

 

[Snotboy]

as a DM: I'd let it stand. Why punish someone for creative multiclassing, even if it is a bit MAD?

MAD? If you think someone who does that will pump dexterity to use rogue abilities, think again. He won't. For just 13 dex and one feat, he'll get to crit on all of his warlock spells on an 18-20. No dex needed after that.

Now on the other hand, he'll never benefit from a warlock paragon path, but I couldn't tell you if that is that much of a hindrance.

Oh yea, at level 16, anyone he crits upon, he has combat advantage against until the end of his next turn, so he can sneak attack on top of his curse bonus damage, right?

Sorry, I'd still stand by implement=/=weapon.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

as a DM: I'd let it stand. Why punish someone for creative multiclassing, even if it is a bit MAD?

It's really not MAD at all. An Infernal Warlock could do this with a High Constitution. Even Dex isn't that important, since most of his attacks will be Constitution based, and he doesn't necessarily care about the dagger attacks as much as he cares about having a 15% crit chance with his warlock spells.

Poorly worded or not, the ability is clearly meant to work with attacks that use a dagger and include the Weapon keyword.

 

[Ginnel]

You say creative, I say its a twisting of the rules which is not supported as intended.

apparently your mileage may vary.

 

[Keenath]

Now on the other hand, he'll never benefit from a warlock paragon path, but I couldn't tell you if that is that much of a hindrance.

If he's star pact, it's not. Doomsayer SUCKS* and I'd personally recommend any starpact warlock get a multiclass feat that opens up a path that's more worthwhile. The Spellstorm Mage is my particular favorite, but this is an interesting idea.

That said, if it were my game, I'm going to assume the text's intent is to boost your crit rate when using a dagger as a weapon, and that the pact blade is a weird corner case that they missed.

Just reading through the magic weapons chapter, I notice that wizards can use staves the same way warlocks use a pact blade; you can apply the staff's enhancement bonus to melee attacks that you make with it as well as to powers that use it as an implement.


* The Doomsayer focuses on making your fear powers really scary, but there are no fear powers available to him between level 7 and level 25 other than his paragon path powers (and of course his at-will), which makes Doomsayer's Oath pretty lame. Worse is Doomsayer's Proclamation, which makes nearby enemies roll twice and take the worse result when they're saving against fear effects... which would be fine except that the warlock only has ONE fear power that has save-ends, and it's the level 1 Daily "Dread Star", which you're probably replacing at 15th level anyway. It's not even good for boosting allies' powers, because there's only three save-ends fear effects in the book: Dread Star, Astral Whirlwind (the Astral Weapon paladin paragon path's 20th level power), and Prismatic Spray (lvl 25 daily wizard attack). Sad.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Yes, but Deadly Axe (which I was fairly obviously refering to) says nothing of the sort. Weapon focus doesn't either, and that works with non-magical staves.

Of course right now I can't find the RAW which says you can't do these things, so some or all of these could be doable.

Sorry! I was in a rush earlier and misread you.


As for "DM won't allow that" or whatever, hey .. there's a homebrew forum around the corner.

I'm here to discuss the rules.
The whole point of exercises like this is to find broken stuff.
By definition, if something is broken, it needs fixing.
One of the functions of rules forums are for discussing and refining understanding of cases so we can get WoTC to issue effective and sensible errata kthx.

After all, this game is going to be played in worldwide campaigns where players and GMs swap tables on a regular basis.
Consistency is necessary functional implementation.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

Worse is Doomsayer's Proclamation, which makes nearby enemies roll twice and take the worse result when they're saving against fear effects... which would be fine except that the warlock only has ONE fear power that has save-ends, and it's the level 1 Daily "Dread Star", which you're probably replacing at 15th level anyway. It's not even good for boosting allies' powers, because there's only three save-ends fear effects in the book: Dread Star, Astral Whirlwind (the Astral Weapon paladin paragon path's 20th level power), and Prismatic Spray (lvl 25 daily wizard attack). Sad.

There's also a weapon power that produces a Fear effect with a save. If your Doomsayer wants to be good, all his fighter buddies should load up on that weapon.

It still doesn't help much, though.