D&D 5E Oil+Alchemist's Fire

[Asisreo]

The only thing I see as question is the wording of the oil:

"If the target takes any fire damage before the oil dries (after 1 minute), the target takes an additional 5 fire damage from the burning oil. "

It doesn't say "each time". It says "if". It would thus be valid to read it as a one-time thing.

In fact, it kind of makes more sense that way, because as it stands, if you shot an oiled target with a Firebolt, you'd do +5 damage (okay, sounds good), but then say the next two rounds you're doing something else, the target takes 0 damage from fire those two rounds (because that's the RAW for oil), then say you Firebolt them again, then they take another +5 damage, which feels, uh, weird. Really weird. Artificial and computer-game-y. I mean, actually even most games don't do it that way.

Whereas if you treat it as a one-time thing, not only is the damage of the oil more commensurate with the cost of the oil (as compared to Greek Fire), but it makes more sense - the Firebolt in this case causes all the oil to burn up, causing you 5 fire damage. Then you'd need to throw more oil to try the trick again.

Am I missing something? "If" does seem very distinct from "each time" to me.

I think the term "if" doesn't restrain it to one time either. The item says that if they take fire damage before it dries. It doesn't say it dries by being burnt before, though, only after 1 minute.

This means it's still doused by oil and it is still under the oil's effects. So, for instance, you are constantly under the effects of "0 hitpoints" and you must take a death saving throw failure when you take damage.

It's a matter of syntax, I believe, and circumstantial. I can say "If you run around, I'll get mad." But it's implied that it's either continuous (If you ever run around) or based on the context of the scene (while we're in the store) but I don't think it's a common usage for someone to say "If you do this, then this happens" and imply that they mean it only once.

Otherwise, why wouldn't they say "The first time" rather than "if?"

 

[Iry]

More seriously, I let splashed oil burn for two rounds before I consider it "dry". This is the same as pouring it on the ground, and it's 10 damage for an action spent throwing the oil. Which is a little low, but available very early and has many non-combat applications.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Otherwise, why wouldn't they say "The first time" rather than "if?"

That's my point. It's a double-edged sword. You can't say "if" definitely means "each time" and I can't say "if" definitely means "the first time". It's bad wording.

Logically, it makes more sense if it goes up in a single round, because you don't then get the irrational situation where the oil immediately stops burning the moment fire damage isn't being applied, or burns super-intense if a lot of fire-damage is applied (but again goes to a dead stop if fire damage isn't applied).

Balance-wise, it makes more sense for it to be one-time too. Especially considering the very low cost of the oil. Otherwise this becomes a hysterically insane booster for Firebolt or the like. Good ol' Sorcerer Twin Firebolt, Quicken Firebolt, has +5 damage on every roll, which is very nearly double damage, and every round thereafter (for an entire minutes!) by your reading. You basically want to just get everyone to do as many hits with Fire damage as possible, because +5 damage, even at quite high levels, is totally mad. Imagine a party with multiple characters able to do fire damage. Hell, my current party in Odyssey has 3 PCs who have cantrips which can do Fire damage, and spells too, like Chromatic Orb. If this does +5 fire damage every single time the target is hit with fire for an entire minute

And there's no countermeasure possible. You can't "remove the oil". It's not an option. You can't make a save. This is is incredible.

Your proposed usage is powerful, but not broken. But the same logic that powers your oil+alchemists fire deal makes this completely broken, and I do mean broken, because it means anyone not Fire Resistant (which is still like, the vast majority of monster/NPCs), basically the party should just get someone to throw oil on them, then victimize the hell out of them. It's so good you might even want to take whatever Feat it is that gives you Improvised Weapon Proficiency so that you get +Proficiency to hit. Everyone in the party should look at getting a way to do fire damage if they can, to just really pile it on (so long as their main damage doesn't suffer too much).

So, in summary, yes, you interpretation is possible, but it's broken, balance-wise, and not very logical (because either the oil is on fire or it isn't, or it all burned up), and there's no common countermeasure or save (a DM might allow a spell which produced water, or even Prestidigitation to fix it, but almost no monsters or NPCs will have either). As a DM you can rule either way, but if you rule "+5 Fire damage for an entire minute with nothing you can do about it haha!" expect your PCs to go "OHO!!!!" and exploit the hell out of that.

If you just want Alchemist's Fire to suck less, maybe just go with JC's take of +DEX damage/round?

This is the same as pouring it on the ground, and it's 10 damage for an action spent throwing the oil. Which is a little low, but available very early and has many non-combat applications.

10 damage is not actually bad for a usage of your Action on an ability your class is supposed to use or the like (even accounting for a miss), and its actually very good for a non-class ability. It compares extremely favourably with the Help action in combat, for example, which gives Advantage for one attack, to an ally. As poor @Asisreo knows from the extremely lengthy discussion on True Strike, in most situations, Advantage on a single attack is worth like 3-5 damage. Therefore the default 5 damage is not out-of-line. 10 isn't excessive either, because you could miss with the vial (whereas Help always succeeds). It would just require a house rule.

(Btw @Asisreo I enjoyed your reddit post re: exploration adventures, assuming that's also you! Some good pointers!)

 

[BluejayJunior]

You could think of the extra +5 each time as the the oil at the point of impact as quickly burning off, increasing the amount of fire damage, but not lighting the rest of the oil on fire. So a quick flash of heat rather than setting all the oil on fire.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You could think of the extra +5 each time as the the oil at the point of impact as quickly burning off, increasing the amount of fire damage, but not lighting the rest of the oil on fire. So a quick flash of heat rather than setting all the oil on fire.

Sure, but it doesn't make any sense, because that's literally not how oil works, and I pointed out, is totally broken power-wise, because you could easily get insane amounts of damage out of this whilst most enemies could do nothing whatsoever to stop you (once they've been hit).

 

[Asisreo]

Sure, but it doesn't make any sense, because that's literally not how oil works, and I pointed out, is totally broken power-wise, because you could easily get insane amounts of damage out of this whilst most enemies could do nothing whatsoever to stop you (once they've been hit).

There's a few reasons why I don't think it's necessarily broken. Also, thanks for reading my reddit post!

It only has an effective range of 20 ft when thrown. If you miss, the oil just goes away, wasting your action and resources (oil can't come back until you return to civilization). You're more likely to miss, since you don't add your proficiency modifier. You are using the "Use an Object" action which doesn't do well with sneak attack (though fast hands make this pretty good.) My particular strategy relies on alchemist's fire which comes at a gravely expensive 50gp a pop, which also goes through the drain if you miss.

It it a pretty good way to get spellcasters to use firebolt and other fire-based spells but I think that's fine. Is it a lot of damage? Yes. It does require alot of stars to align, though.

Oh, but hey, you could use true strike when you use alchemist's fire!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Your strategy (oil+alch) isn't broken, I agree. If you limited it to that, maybe its fine, but I think in that case +DEX to alch damage as JC suggests is simpler and doesn't open exploits but has similar effect.

+5 Fire damage for a minute to every single instance of fire damage, even without Proficiency to hit (which is only +2 at low levels, note), for basically no monetary cost absolutely is BANANAS BROKEN. Not just powerful, but broken. You can literally almost double the damage you're doing with a lot of abilities, and all it takes a single attack to succeed. Yes, you could miss, wasting an action, but at low levels an action is often averaging around 5 damage anyway, so its not at all a bad deal, given you can then go full "The Crazy World of Arthur Brown" on the target. 20' range doesn't really matter. If you had to enter melee it might, but 20' nah? You only need to get even that close to throw it anyway. Plus don't you get two throws if you two-weapon with it? You could off-hand it. Maybe it doesn't have the Light property though? Still...

And at higher levels its still really valid in a lot of situations. Plus the big issue for me is there's absolutely no countermeasure short of one specific cantrip (arguably) or spells almost no-one has (particularly not monsters). That is what pushes it far into broken. You're just condemned once its applied. You can't even Dispel Magic or something. Plus it stacks with Fire Vulnerability! So if you can apply that as well somehow, or they naturally have it, its worth +10 damage/instance of Fire damage.

I mean, if Alchemist's Fire is worth 50G for 1d4+DEX damage/round with a DC10 DEX save allowed to end it at the cost of an Action (i.e. a strong, universally-accessible countermeasure), then this is worth easily ten or twenty times that, in terms of potential power. You might get 5.5 DPR out of Alch Fire, for a round or two, if the monster doesn't put it out. With this? Wow. Your DPR bonus is just 5 times however many instances of fire-damage you can get, until the monster is dead or 10 rounds. With twin+quick on Firebolt (or Chromatic Orb+Firebolt or whatever) that's potentially +15 right there, and as more people pile on, your one action becomes more and more valuable.

Compare it to Hunters Mark or Hex. They add +1d6 damage, which is significantly less than +5. They're automatic (no save/hit etc.), but they also require Concentration. Most importantly, they apply only to the person who casts them. So there is a very hard limit to the bonus damage they can do. They also cost a spell slot. Whereas you can have any amount of oil for next-to-nothing.

But the main thing is they only apply to one person and only add +3.5/damage. This applies to everyone and adds +5. It's force multiplier. The more people can do fire damage, the better it gets, and its very easy to use. Yeah sometimes it'll go wrong, same for any plan, but +5 damage/hit? Uhhhh that's going to make up for a lot of failings real fast.

 

[BluejayJunior]

Sure, but it doesn't make any sense, because that's literally not how oil works, and I pointed out, is totally broken power-wise, because you could easily get insane amounts of damage out of this whilst most enemies could do nothing whatsoever to stop you (once they've been hit).

I don't agree with your assertion that enemies can't do anything to counter it. If a DM say that they can't wipe it off or something because the description doesn't mention anything about that, then that is a problem with the DM's lack of improvisation. It's perfectly reasonable to improvise an action to remove the oil.
I agree that the +5 with every hit could be totally broken if abused. But for me, I'd only worry about that if the party decided to make that a strategy to abuse. I'd probably rule that the oil lights on fire and the target just takes fire damage every turn. But I don't think it would be nearly as broken in actual play as you make it seem on paper.

 

[Stormonu]

It's all fun and games for the party to carry vials of acid, oil and alchemist's fire - until an enemy wizard casts shatter.

 

[jaelis]

It's all fun and games for the party to carry vials of acid, oil and alchemist's fire - until an enemy wizard casts shatter.

Well...

A nonmagical object that isn’t being worn or carried also takes the damage if it’s in the spell’s area.