Old haste new level and name?

[FreeTheSlaves]

The problem with any 3.0 haste-like spell is that it grants extra actions. Actions are a premium quality that can usually only be improved by having more allies on your side, allowing someone to improve their actions effectively increases the # of "allies" you have. The overall result of this is that this knowing this spell makes an 11th level Wizard not CR 11. I believe such a wizard would be +1 CR and this could be me underestimating.

It would also change the dynamic of high level combat as the Wizard could avoid the quandry over casting defensive/buff-ally/offensive spells. In other words, remove a tactical element from high level combat.

Just my $0.02

 

[Li Shenron]

The problem with any 3.0 haste-like spell is that it grants extra actions. Actions are a premium quality that can usually only be improved by having more allies on your side, allowing someone to improve their actions effectively increases the # of "allies" you have.

That's why I suggested the above. For a spellcaster the old Haste basically doubled your turn's worth of action. It is tactically a huge bonus, almost like having 2 spellcasters instead of one (almost but not quite, since there's still only 1 to kill ).

I don't know how to estimate the idea, but I thought that a good price for extra actions now could be less actions later. This could be a good compromise, as long as the duration is short enough so that almost always the price is going to be paid in the same combat. If the duration is 1d4+1, or perhaps 1d4 only, it's short enough that you run the serious risk of the spell wearing off before the end of the encounter.

Then the penalty kicks in for the rest of encounter and perhaps even longer. The key issue here is how to design the penalty appropriately. Something that would prevent spellcasting completely is IMO quite fair. We can considering the following conditions:

Exhausted: -6 Str and Dex (including weight capacity and AC) and half speed; takes 1 hour of complete rest to become Fatigued

Disabled (but not at 0hp): can only take partial actions, and standard actions deal 1 hp damage

Nauseated: cannot cast or attack, only 1 move action per round

Sickened: -2 attacks, damage, skill checks, saving throws

Slowed (as the spell): can take only partial actions, -1 attacks, AC and Reflex, half speed

IMO a good possibility could be that after the duration of Haste the character is (non-magically) both Exhausted and Nauseated for. The exhaustion works normally, i.e. goes away only on complete rest for 1 hour, then leaves the subject Fatigued only; it is a lesser penalty than nauseated, but still hurts. The Nauseated effect is IMO enough if it lasts for an equal duration as the Haste, either the same result or roll a different 1d4+1.

 

[Li Shenron]

Thanks for the help Li Shenron

Anytime I hope you're not getting nervous with too many suggestions, since I have just posted a different one

 

[Nifft]

Li, your solution may be balanced on paper, but I fear it wouldn't be in play... effectively, the party's spellcaster is CR+2 for X rounds, then he's CR-2 for the rest of the fight. I can just see some less mature players not wanting to deal with the consequences of their spells, or some DMs letting PCs off easy.

In other words, I think it might tend to be too much of a burden on the DM.

Consider this, though: what if you granted 3.0e haste, with a hefty XP cost? Say, 100 xp/level.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Li Shenron]

Li, your solution may be balanced on paper, but I fear it wouldn't be in play... effectively, the party's spellcaster is CR+2 for X rounds, then he's CR-2 for the rest of the fight. I can just see some less mature players not wanting to deal with the consequences of their spells, or some DMs letting PCs off easy.

I have no idea if it would work either Although I wouldn't think of it in terms of CR... it can lead to lots of discussion and wouldn't really be helpful.

Along the lines of my suggestion, I think the spell is going to be used more as a last resort in battles which are more difficult than expected, and the spellcaster is taking a risk to perform some double-spells tricks, hoping that it would turn the tide in the party's favour and end the encounter.

For NPCs it can be nice: as the evil wizard is getting low on HP, he Hastes himself for the final effort. For PCs it wouldn't be far from a Barbarian Rage, although that doesn't render him useless afterwards, and usually lasts long enough.

 

[Sledge]

My thinking on the extra action is that on average the latest writeup will last 3.5 rounds... so it costs one action now, and gets 3.5 back eventually... the first one you get back replaces the one you "wasted" on the spell. That leaves 2.5 actual actions gained, but they don't pay off until 2 rounds after casting the spell. For buffing it is useless due to the delay and offensively is is useless because of the 50% miss chance. The spell seems potentially unbalancing, while still useless. I'm not really sure how to keep the same mechanics and yet have it be useful and balanced. If you simply want a spell that gives a feel like in 3.0 take a look at the differences.

3.0
On its turn, the subject may take an extra partial action, either before or after its regular action. The subject gains a +4 haste bonus to AC. The subject loses this bonus whenever it would lose a dodge bonus. The subject can jump one and a half times as far as normal. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus.
3.5
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature?s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can?t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)
A hasted creature gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Any condition that makes you lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes you lose dodge bonuses.
All of the hasted creature?s modes of movement (including land movement, burrow, climb, fly, and swim) increase by 30 feet, to a maximum of twice the subject?s normal speed using that form of movement. This increase counts as an enhancement bonus, and it affects the creature?s jumping distance as normal for increased speed.

Perhaps a different way of adjudicating a haste effect is to give the effects of 3.5 haste, plus an increasing initiative bonus of say 5 per round. The target could then trade (as part of the spell) say 20 points of initiative in order to gain an extra standard action?

 

[dwayne]

Adding fuel to the fire

While writing this spell up and redoing it over and over I just came up with a 9th level variation on time stop that might be cool.
The idea is you call your self from some point in the future between 1d4+1 rounds after the spell ends so that after the spell ends you disappear for the duration that the spell was. Then reappear were you were before. All damage that whichever self suffered is applied immediately to both selves. I think I seen a spell like this some were but cannot remember were.

Any ways I like how the spell turned out above and, as always if the DM lets the PCs take an Inch they will all ways take it to another plane. Remember if you show weakness they will attack you.