• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

Older Editions and "Balance" when compared to 3.5

First, it's important to remember that there are Many Types of Balance.

Unfortunately, what most people seem to mean when they talk about balance seems to be "combat equivalency". Which, when it comes to a fully-rounded roleplaying game, is a highly suspect measure. OTOH, I would tend to agree that the balance of pre-3E D&D was basically so nonexistent that it's a non-issue. (Case in point: When people talk about how "easy" it was to make house rules for pre-3E versions of the game, what they generally mean -- whether they realize it or not -- is that the balance was so completely screwed up that you could basically change anything you want and it was virtually impossible to end up with anything more busted/unbalanced than the RAW.)

Nonetheless, D&D worked as a game because:

(1) It leveraged spotlight balance exceptionally well.
(2) It was a fully cooperative game.

If your PC fighter and PC wizard get into a deathmatch, the "balance problems" of the game will cause problems. But if the group thinks of itself as acting like a collective unit (able to enjoy and revel in each other's successes), then the strong mechanical spotlight support of the class system pretty much carries the weight.

This is why I generally only run into problems with balance in D&D when I have two PCs who are both in the same niche with wildly disparate builds allowing one PC to be much more effective than the other. (This can generally be solved, particularly in 3E, by tweaking the build.)

(Of course, if you have a player (or are a player) who obsesses over whether or not their DPS is equal to the other PCs, then the balance issues in the rule system are going to cause problems.)

There is another factor at play here, too: 3rd Edition was the first edition to give any sort of truly meaningful guidelines for gauging appropriate encounter strength. This is a useful tool when used correctly.

When people become convinced that the only "right" encounter is a perfectly "balanced" encounter, however, the system is being abused. That's when you get people obsessing over PCs who aren't optimally built; or PCs that are performing "above their level"; or party builds that aren't capable of meeting the challenges they're "supposed" to be facing. The fetishization of balance is poison.

And finally: I think it's also true that a lot more people saw high level play in 3E than they did pre-3E (largely because I think the vast majority of pre-3E groups ignored the "XP for treasure" rules, which meant they leveled much more slowly). Since the big balance issues don't start cropping up until high levels, the problems weren't seen by as many people.

All of that said, I have heard horror stories of 3rd Edition games at high levels that just got out of hand, the CoDzilla stuff, etc.

That just made me wonder if "balance" in the older editions (pre 3E) was a factor, of it was something that noone ever noticed or worried about, and the game was just played and enjoyed without all of the angst.....and if so, is it possible to do the same thing with newer editions - throwing "balance" to the wind?

This is an effect of the internet making international discussions on a mass scale possible. If you weren't participating in that kind of community pre-3E, then you didn't see this stuff. If (like me) you were participating in similar communities, then you saw this exact same kind of stuff for 2E. (Except more egregious examples of it because 2E had more balance issues.)

You get a thousand monkeys typing away furiously at their keyboards, and they're pretty quickly going to ferret out all the corner cases in a ruleset that can be horribly abused.

I can't remember the exact quote, but Gary Gygax said in a thread over on Dragonsfoot that the reason clerics were only given blunt weapon proficiencies was a balance issue.

The idea may have eventually been altered in order to become a balancing tool, but one can say with absolute certainty that in a game where all weapons regardless of type do 1d6 points of damage (i.e. OD&D in 1974) that any differences in weapon proficiencies were entirely a matter of flavor text.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

When people become convinced that the only "right" encounter is a perfectly "balanced" encounter, however, the system is being abused. That's when you get people obsessing over PCs who aren't optimally built; or PCs that are performing "above their level"; or party builds that aren't capable of meeting the challenges they're "supposed" to be facing. The fetishization of balance is poison.
I disagree entirely. The entire point of having this tool was so that you could make encounters and know what effect they'd have on the players.

One of the major frustrations for me (and many DMs) prior to 3e was that you'd pick monsters entirely for story reasons and simply HOPE that they didn't kill off your PCs and have to start a new game. Often, due to experience, you were right. But other times, you'd miss your guess and an enemy's AC would be so good that no one in the party could hit it, and it'd TPK your party.

But very few DMs WANTED a TPK. They wanted to have a fun time fighting a combat that was challenging, but not TOO challenging. So, that's what the system in 3e was designed to do...to tell you which encounters would be in that range(i.e. appropriate challenges).

It's the exact thing that 2e did so badly. Each encounter had the possibility of killing your PCs, whether that was your intention or not. So most DMs erred on the side of caution and would purposefully use very weak enemies.

Having a system that could accurately predict how much of a challenge a particular enemy or group of enemies would be for your players is pretty much the holy grail of DMing. That was, YOU get to choose if you want a weak or strong encounter instead of allowing randomness to do so. That's the entire idea of balance. In theory, if each class were perfectly balanced and the system of rating challenges worked perfectly then the DM would be completely in charge of their own game and it's difficulty.

Too bad there isn't any game that has achieved perfect balance and perfect challenge rating ability. Although, IMHO, 4e has come closest to this.
 

1e rated monsters by Level, 1 to 10, indicating the typical level of PCs expected to fight them and the typical dungeon level on which they'd be encountered. Level was calculated with an actual system (unlike 3e) - look at the stats, crunch numbers, determine threat level. This is the opposite of 4e where numbers (AC etc) derive from threat level rather than vice versa. Monsters immune to non-magic weapons were all 3rd level or higher, AIR, the level at which PCs typically started acquiring magic weaponry.
 

1e rated monsters by Level, 1 to 10, indicating the typical level of PCs expected to fight them and the typical dungeon level on which they'd be encountered. Level was calculated with an actual system (unlike 3e) - look at the stats, crunch numbers, determine threat level.
I admit, I'm not extremely familiar with 1e, having started with 2e. However, I was not aware of any system for monsters of a certain level. Nothing the book ever explained. It appeared to me as if the designers had guessed the difficulty of monsters and put them at that level.

I know there was the random dungeon tables which suggested "level 1" monsters and so on. But if memory serves me, monsters often appeared on multiple "levels" in that chart and that certain monsters were obviously way too powerful for the levels they were put on, since they were intended to be the "random extremely hard monster" for that level.

And, unless my memory is failing me, most of the monster books to come out later didn't specify the level of the monsters.

But, yes, it was an alright estimate in most cases. However, my experience was that it wouldn't tell you how MANY monsters to use and sometimes individual monsters were way harder than their estimates. I know there was a recommended number for each monster, but rarely did anyone actually follow that. Fairly often, I'd see DMs go "Grey ooze is appropriate for your level, so is a beholder, so is a dragon. You fight all of them".

This is the opposite of 4e where numbers (AC etc) derive from threat level rather than vice versa.
I'm not sure that's a good thing. Better to guarantee that a monster is the appropriate challenge than hope that your formula generates the right difficulty. Since most formulas are at least slightly flawed. Most when it comes to extreme numbers. After all, what difficulty is the 2e monster with an AC of -10 with only 10 hitpoints, but with a THAC0 of 20 that also has a special attack that causes enemies to save or die? It is super low because it can barely hit and dies to low level spells or super high because it is nearly impossible to hit with weapons and can kill you outright?
 

1e rated monsters by Level, 1 to 10, indicating the typical level of PCs expected to fight them and the typical dungeon level on which they'd be encountered. Level was calculated with an actual system (unlike 3e) - look at the stats, crunch numbers, determine threat level. This is the opposite of 4e where numbers (AC etc) derive from threat level rather than vice versa. Monsters immune to non-magic weapons were all 3rd level or higher, AIR, the level at which PCs typically started acquiring magic weaponry.

This is incorrect. It didn't indicate the level the PCs were meant to be. Monster level was related to the level of the dungeon they appeared on, but it had no relation to party level.

There was a system that related monster HD and abilities to party-level to work out appropriate XP, but it was a very hit-or-miss affair.

Cheers!
 

BTW while I think that 0e& Classic were well balanced (except 1st level Elves in Classic), 1e PHB-only was well balanced but leaning towards Clerics & Rangers, and OSRIC's 1e+UA Weapon Spec is well balanced but leaning towards Fighters & their subclasses, Unearthed Arcana did introduce a lot of unbalanced elements - notably Cavaliers, also Drow and Deep Gnome PCs. And 2e removed or reduced many 1e balancing factors by eg raising demihuman level limits, or the appalling 2e Stoneskin spell. Overall I'd say the drift was *away* from balance, culminating in 3e with its worthless high level Fighter and CODzillas. 4e has made a serious effort to restore balance to the Force... to the game. Although I'm not certain that's made it more fun.
I have to say that demi-human level limits were never a great balancing factor, and I know many house-ruled them.
The idea that you'd get to a certain level and then just stop advancing was just plain silly. One of the major elements for any player, in any rpg designed to be played in a campaign, is the idea that the characters improve over time. If this stops happening then you remove a major prop of the campaign.
 

I admit, I'm not extremely familiar with 1e, having started with 2e. However, I was not aware of any system for monsters of a certain level. Nothing the book ever explained. It appeared to me as if the designers had guessed the difficulty of monsters and put them at that level.

You will find it in the 1e DMG. In addition, from Fiend Folio onward, all monsters have their Monster Level listed in the monster books.

This is incorrect. It didn't indicate the level the PCs were meant to be. Monster level was related to the level of the dungeon they appeared on, but it had no relation to party level.

In that a 1st level party could, potentially at least, find themselves on level 10 of the dungeon, this is true. However, dungeon level was an indication to the players as to general level of difficulty, so that they could guage risks (as opposed to having the DM do this for them).

Lower dungeon levels = greater threats = greater rewards.

The game was to figure out how much you could deal with, get the best rewards you could, and escape with your lives.

There was a system that related monster HD and abilities to party-level to work out appropriate XP, but it was a very hit-or-miss affair.

It worked out XP to the point where individual hit points mattered. If it was a "very hit-or-miss affair", then CR is not even in the ballpark. :lol:
 


There was a system that related monster HD and abilities to party-level to work out appropriate XP, but it was a very hit-or-miss affair.
I think Don Turnbull's Monster Mark system was superior. Also, the way Turnbull approaches the issue of monster level and encounter difficulty shows that encounter balancing was a concern for at least some of those playing early D&D.
 


Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top