D&D 2E On AD&D 2E

TerraDave

5ever, or until 2024
I need to preface this post with a disclaimer. I love 2e. I played it for a very long time. But it has warts, and whether something is a bug or a feature is often in the eye of the beholder, so to speak.

2e is a very different game. It has tons of splatbooks to draw from, potentially giving you a bewildering array of options that is at least equal to the 3.5 era. You don't have to use them all, of course, but I played in a few campaigns where "if TSR wrote it, it's legal for use" and the disparity between a guy who plays a Fighter from the PHB to someone who is a specialty priest out of Faiths and Avatars, has psionic wild talents, a kit, and has a cracked-out race from outside the PHB like Sylvan Elf, Tiefling, Aasimar, or something from the Complete Book of Humanoids, is telling.

You have Elven Dualist Wizards, Wild Mages, Viking Rune Magic, Spellfire Wielders, Psionicists, Quest Spells, Elven High Magic, Elementalists, Sha'ir, and probably seven or eight even more esoteric powers I'm forgetting that are potentially available to players. The game can run from magic-high (Forgotten Realms), magic super-high (Arcane Age), magic-low (your typical Ravenloft game), and weird hybrids like Dark Sun (magic super low to Dragon Kings).

Just about every rule in the PHB can be bent or broken in later books (my Paladin can't have weapon specialization? I can't dual-wield long swords? I can't be a multi-classed Bard? Hold my ale!), and only once did TSR ever try to rebalance things (Complete Priest's Handbook)- most books are pure power creep. So you can embrace the gonzo madness, or try to lock things down to the bare essentials, as you like.

Character classes aren't balanced against each other, even if the different xp tracks might lead you think so. Some classes are useless until about level 5. Thieves can't reliably do anything at low levels (even with the best possible race/Dex combo in the PHB, it's going to take til level 4 to get to 95% hide and move silently, as examples, and you're going to be terrible at anything else).

Warrior classes are beasts for a good while, with ever-increasing saves, great hit points, and reliable damage....then one day out of the blue, spellcasters are able to break reality in half...or not, since "save neg." relegates many spells to worthlessness, and the game isn't shy about giving out immunities and magic resistance like candy.

Everything is slave to RNG- your character can be puny or godlike based on random chance, and random chance can fell even the most powerful character, forcing many to try and make ever stronger characters.

And you will find out quickly that, despite what the books claim, you can't just make whatever character you want- system mastery permeates the game, from what ability scores are best for you, to even what weapons you should use (longswords yes, two weapon fighting, yes, two handed weapons, no).

And finally, well, about Thac0, I'm not going to weigh in on whether it's good or bad, but instead I'm going to bring up how horribly it's presented, thanks to D&D-isms that were present from day 1.

As you level, your Thac0 goes down. And your AC goes down. But rather than subtract from Thac0, your ability scores and magic items increase your die roll. Your Dexterity defense mod. is a negative value, which makes sense, since it lowers your AC. But just about any other beneficial modifier to AC is represented as a positive value!

I've had new players express confusion that somehow a Shield +1 isn't a cursed item!

Combine this with the fact that you want to roll high on saving throws and attacks, but low on ability checks and Non-Weapon Proficiencies...and other times, rather than use a d20, the game wants you to use d%, and it's more than a little oblique to new gamers.

Oh and about those Non-Weapon Proficiencies- it's always interesting that the more books you use, the less characters can do without proficiency! Soon you need proficiencies to notice things, to observe things (not the same!), to fast-talk, intimidate, gather information, loot treasure quickly, beg for coin, mimic the sounds of animals, guide a boat down a rapid stream (no, sorry, Seamanship doesn't apply!), Acting, seduction, pretending to be asleep, walking on water, or even (a personal favorite), Giant Kite Flying!

All in a system that gives most characters 3 proficiency slots at level 1 and a new one every 3 levels! Oh sure, maybe your Class (Bard) or Kit gives you a few free ones, and you can always choose to know less languages, but there's no way you're going to get more than a few of these, and the system for improving proficiencies is, well, pretty draconian, to say the least. Oh and some proficiencies cost more than one slot!

(And while the PHB claims that proficiencies are optional, that flies out the window with the very first splatbook, lol).

TLDR: 2e has a great deal of charm, gonzo insanity, and wild ideas a plenty. It's also a hot mess of a system. If you're familiar with all of it's idiosyncrasies, you probably love it. Or hate it.

Most likely, a mix of the two. It's likely the most house-ruled version of the game that has ever existed, to the point that any two random players will have incredibly different experiences playing the game.

When it was good, it was and incredible, amazing experience. When it was not good, it was wretched, bitter experience.

And I haven't even gotten into Dragon Magazine content or the "Player's Option" books yet!
THIS was 2e.

It was this, or some core books that were slightly more coherent than 1e, but without the style.
 

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R_J_K75

Legend
A friend of mine asked, rather out of the blue, what edition of D&D I would use for my "last D&D campaign ever" and I answered, without hesitation, 2nd Edition AD&D.
I loved 2E, the whole feel and vibe of the game has changed since and I miss it. I think its safe to say that edition was the most fun I had playing D&D. Me and the people I played with all played and DMed. We all swapped books and used A LOT of those optional rules, campaign settings, dragon/dungeon magazines, etc. We very rarely had any issues with introducing a new rule, class, kit, spell or magical item, and no one gave 2 sh*ts about character/class or game balance. Character death loomed around every corner, which seems something the game lost along the way. Not that I try (or tried) to intentionally kill PCs, but it added a level of tension and suspense I haven't seen in the game since. Once 3E lifted race/class requirements and dual & multi class limits IME players stopped caring about their characters as much because they could always just make another one. Sure 2E had its flaws but I think it's the most well-rounded edition. I read so many 2E books cover to cover and played 3, 4 even 5 times a week. None of us had jobs, we just sat around drinking beer, smoking pot and playing 12+ hour sessions sometimes for days on end. So of course, I have a lot of nostalgia for that edition. When 3E came out it was shiny and new but the shine wore off pretty quick. Players came and went over the years but in 2000 we made the decision to switch to 3E, and switched to subsequent editions as they came out. We are now playing 5E, which I'm not a big fan of, but then again I havent had that desire to pour over books, create characters, or write adventures since 2E. In fact we knew the rules so well back then that we could sit down and play for hours with zero thought or prep. I've been seriously considering switching back to 2E the last few months, but since we as a group decided to invest in and play 5E Ive been reluctant to do so. With Crisis on OGL and the forthcoming 1D&D that option is looking better and better. Sadly, over the last few years I've lost a lot of passion and drive for the hobby for various real-life reasons, so maybe a change will rekindle it.
 

ilgatto

How inconvenient
I loved 2E, the whole feel and vibe of the game has changed since and I miss it. I think its safe to say that edition was the most fun I had playing D&D. Me and the people I played with all played and DMed. We all swapped books and used A LOT of those optional rules, campaign settings, dragon/dungeon magazines, etc. We very rarely had any issues with introducing a new rule, class, kit, spell or magical item, and no one gave 2 sh*ts about character/class or game balance. Character death loomed around every corner, which seems something the game lost along the way. Not that I try (or tried) to intentionally kill PCs, but it added a level of tension and suspense I haven't seen in the game since. Once 3E lifted race/class requirements and dual & multi class limits IME players stopped caring about their characters as much because they could always just make another one. Sure 2E had its flaws but I think it's the most well-rounded edition. I read so many 2E books cover to cover and played 3, 4 even 5 times a week. None of us had jobs, we just sat around drinking beer, smoking pot and playing 12+ hour sessions sometimes for days on end. So of course, I have a lot of nostalgia for that edition. When 3E came out it was shiny and new but the shine wore off pretty quick. Players came and went over the years but in 2000 we made the decision to switch to 3E, and switched to subsequent editions as they came out. We are now playing 5E, which I'm not a big fan of, but then again I havent had that desire to pour over books, create characters, or write adventures since 2E. In fact we knew the rules so well back then that we could sit down and play for hours with zero thought or prep. I've been seriously considering switching back to 2E the last few months, but since we as a group decided to invest in and play 5E Ive been reluctant to do so. With Crisis on OGL and the forthcoming 1D&D that option is looking better and better. Sadly, over the last few years I've lost a lot of passion and drive for the hobby for various real-life reasons, so maybe a change will rekindle it.
All of this, especially the 12+ hour sessions for days on end, and with notable exceptions being that I still play 2E; have played 3E once after reading through the rules and not liking them; and, of course, that we didn't do beer and pot naughty word lamp ... that's something we don't do here in the lowlands.

Hope you can get back to playing 2E. You won't regret it. Indeed, I'm meeting ever more next-generation players who grew up with WoW and playing 4E/5E and have turned to 2E, absolutely reveling in the excitement it can bring.
 

R_J_K75

Legend
that's something we don't do here in the lowlands.
That was fuel, like healing potions so we could keep playing, LOL.
Hope you can get back to playing 2E. You won't regret it. Indeed, I'm meeting ever more next-generation players who grew up with WoW and playing 4E/5E and have turned to 2E, absolutely reveling in the excitement it can bring.
I just talked to my group, and we all agreed that were going to switch over to 2E, so I'm excited to dig out my books and start refreshing my memory on the rules. I think they are so ingrained in my mind that it wont take long. I think one reason that I've had trouble keeping rules straight from 3E forward was that subconsciously my brain was always trying to interpret and resolve things in 2E terms.
 

R_J_K75

Legend
ICR if there was much if any difference between original release of the 2E core books and the revised black books that came out in 94/95, anyone know? We used both and I dont remember noticing much of a difference.
 

eyeheartawk

#1 Enworld Jerk™
ICR if there was much if any difference between original release of the 2E core books and the revised black books that came out in 94/95, anyone know? We used both and I dont remember noticing much of a difference.
Naw, just new art and layouts for the most part. IIRC it was done to present the Player's and DM options book as looking "core" alongside it.
 

R_J_K75

Legend
Naw, just new art and layouts for the most part. IIRC it was done to present the Player's and DM options book as looking "core" alongside it.
Thats what I thought, makes sense because I think the players options books came out about the same time. I understand that the amount of releases was what killed TSR, but It really is a shame that WotC doesnt release more varied products like TSR did in 2E
 

ilgatto

How inconvenient
That was fuel, like healing potions so we could keep playing, LOL.
No worries. Only we did have (some) money so our fuels of choice were typically of the more... exclusive variety. :)
I just talked to my group, and we all agreed that were going to switch over to 2E, so I'm excited to dig out my books and start refreshing my memory on the rules. I think they are so ingrained in my mind that it wont take long. I think one reason that I've had trouble keeping rules straight from 3E forward was that subconsciously my brain was always trying to interpret and resolve things in 2E terms.
Hope springs eternal! Back to old school I say!
 

Staffan

Legend
ICR if there was much if any difference between original release of the 2E core books and the revised black books that came out in 94/95, anyone know? We used both and I dont remember noticing much of a difference.
Other than art/layout, there was very little difference. The one bit I know was different was the very small section on outer planes. The original 2e DMG used the original names for the planes (e.g. Nirvana, Seven Heavens, Hell) while the revised version used the Planescape names (e.g. Mechanus, Mount Celestia, Baator).
 

Firwood

Explorer
ICR if there was much if any difference between original release of the 2E core books and the revised black books that came out in 94/95, anyone know? We used both and I dont remember noticing much of a difference.
Better layout, better index and new art, along with typos corrections and errata included. Not bad.
 

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