• NOW LIVE! Into the Woods--new character species, eerie monsters, and haunting villains to populate the woodlands of your D&D games.

D&D 5E On FAQs and Twitter

The good news is, 5th edition is not exploitable at all! Because questions like these are left to the judgment and common sense of the DM, it's not a problem for the rules to leave a little wiggle room. It's unrealistic to expect a profoundly open-ended system like D&D to have precise rules covering every possible contingency. The designers realized the folly in even trying to do that.

I guess two things come to mind.

#1 is that if a character can effectively wield a staff and cast a spell at the same time or if a cleric can cast with a weapon and shield seems to be more than a "contingency"--it's likely to come up in every single game. Those kind of things should be in the rules and be clear. I don't think ambiguity here is a feature.

#2 is that the shared world folks (organized play) really will want some consistent answers. If the same character in the same world can cast a spell while using a shield one day and can't on another, it really messes with the player. A sense of a single world gets ruined when what the character is capable of keeps changing. I'm personally fine if one GM rules that it's DC 10 to do a given task and another goes with 15. But Boolean things that either can or can't be done really cause problems IMO.

I think it's fair to ask if organized play is important enough to justify the clarification of rules, but at the least the shared world folks will need to be writing those FAQs (as would anyone doing tag-team game mastering).

Mark
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The Hex one (that you can't use it between encounters) is just contrary to the text (it's got a 1 hour duration that you can bump to 24 hours!).

His answer makes sense to me. You would want to increase the duration for times when you are hexing someone but either are not looking to (or able to) fight them now, or perhaps ever. Like a classic hex (IE a curse). Lots of scenarios come into play with this. For instance, you Hex someone you are pursuing, and now their trail will be more obvious because you gave them disadvantage on dexterity checks. You Hex someone in a political scene like a crowded ballroom, with the intent to fight them later when they leave. You hex someone to give them disadvantage on an ability check, like a machinery worker to increase the odds they screw up. You hex someone's intelligence to decrease the odds they will recall a bit of information you don't want them remembering. You hex someone's wisdom if you don't want them spotting someone hiding with stealth. There are TONS of reasons you would want to hex someone with a longer duration.

And the text makes sense with his ruling. A subsequent round is the next round, or the round that follows in time, order, or place, according to the definition of subsequent. So you'd have to re-assign the hex on the round after the round your prior hexed target died. And that's the nature of a hex (the English word hex), that it's focused on a particular target. It even calls on this reputation, with the eye of newt material component. What the heck is a hex with no target? How can you hold onto a hex for hours with nobody subject to that hex? His ruling makes perfect sense to me.
 

Humm, this is a playstyle I'm not quite used to. Could you give an example of where the spell, situation and character would play a role in the decision if the caster could cast with a shield or not?

I expect lots of calls to be made by the DM on the fly (I'm generally the DM and do this a lot), but I don't expect things like that to be one of those things.

Mark

I think it depends on how you see the somatic components in specifics, and whether they involve material components.

Flame Strike: maybe raise both arms, say the words as you motion the direction and target of the spell - with weapon and shield - BLAM!

Revivify: one hand touching the target, with one sprinkly diamond dust while fervently intoning words of healing and supplication - no weapon or shield

Big motions involving just direction or complicated possibly two handed actions.

Curing a prone/unconscious target might look significantly different than restoring hit points to a otherwise functioning comrade.
 
Last edited:

His answer makes sense to me. You would want to increase the duration for times when you are hexing someone but either are not looking to (or able to) fight them now, or perhaps ever. Like a classic hex (IE a curse). Lots of scenarios come into play with this. For instance, you Hex someone you are pursuing, and now their trail will be more obvious because you gave them disadvantage on dexterity checks. You Hex someone in a political scene like a crowded ballroom, with the intent to fight them later when they leave. You hex someone to give them disadvantage on an ability check, like a machinery worker to increase the odds they screw up. You hex someone's intelligence to decrease the odds they will recall a bit of information you don't want them remembering. You hex someone's wisdom if you don't want them spotting someone hiding with stealth. There are TONS of reasons you would want to hex someone with a longer duration.

And the text makes sense with his ruling. A subsequent round is the next round, or the round that follows in time, order, or place, according to the definition of subsequent. So you'd have to re-assign the hex on the round after the round your prior hexed target died. And that's the nature of a hex (the English word hex), that it's focused on a particular target. It even calls on this reputation, with the eye of newt material component. What the heck is a hex with no target? How can you hold onto a hex for hours with nobody subject to that hex? His ruling makes perfect sense to me.

I concur. I also got an idea a fantasy novel I read where the warlock used maggots to syphon magic from the innately magical sorcerer... My warlock will carry around beetles or worms or grubs that he can hex one by one. At the start of the fight, pop one in the mouth, squish, and feel the power flow through me. Then direct the infernal power at the next victim. Muahahahahahaha!
 

I think it depends on how you see the somatic components in specifics, and whether they involve material components.

Flame Strike: maybe raise both arms, say the words as you motion the direction and target of the spell - with weapon and shield - BLAM!

Revivify: one hand touching the target, with one sprinkly diamond dust while fervently intoning words of healing and supplication - no weapon or shield

Big motions involving just direction or complicated possibly two handed actions.

Curing a prone/unconscious target might look significantly different than restoring hit points to a otherwise functioning comrade.
Interesting. Would the DM communicate which is which on the fly, or would the player know ahead of time? Seems like a lot of work either way, but if it helps the game work for you, sounds great.
 

Rules-lawyering is not itself a rules and resources issue! It is a *human interaction* issue.

If you have a disruptive rules-lawyer, you don't successfully control them by controlling what rules and rulings they have available - that is a passive-aggressive approach that doesn't really address the central issue. You manage them by having a discussion like mature adults about how rules will be adjudicated at the table, and how much counter-argument will be allowed.



"I don't want it, so *nobody* can have it," is a questionable position to take.

If you don't want it, don't use it. Don't allow reference to it at your table.

As a recovering and frequently relapsing rules lawyer, I mostly concur. Two quibbles...

1. The tone of the game matters a lot. 4e encouraged rules lawyering more than 5e does.

2. Reducing ambiguity and broken rules reduces the rules lawyering much of the time. Most of my rules lawyering transgressions stemmed from me arguing that something was not allowed, as opposed to arguing that something should be allowed. The game can get ugly when rules lawyers and munchkins share a table.

Clearer rules reduce conflict at the table, in my experience.

P. S. -- saying the game works fine if you just avoid playing with rules lawyers and munchkins is a tad specious. DnD relies on us for sales and participation. This forum is teeming with us. We are an integral subset of the playing public. Our passion about the rules is related to our passion for the hobby.
 

And the text makes sense with his ruling. A subsequent round is the next round, or the round that follows in time, order, or place, according to the definition of subsequent.

I can't find any source that defines subsequent that way, though I now understand where he's coming from. If one says "the subsequent" it implies there was only one, so it immediately follows (there is nothing else). However, the "a" implies a plurality of choice. Again, I'm fine if he's clarifying the intent, but I'd hope it would get errataed if that's what were shooting for.

Thanks, makes a bit more sense now.
 

My concern comes in as both a player and a DM. While I'm a fan of rule-light RPGs where GM rulings are a frequent and expected part of the experience, most of those work best when, "The GM rules..." is an explicit part of the rules. An example in 5e D&D is DCs for ability checks. It just says the DM should assign what makes sense, using the guidelines given for what the designers intend DC 10, 15, etc to mean. I love that! That's the sort of DM rulings that are perfect!

Note that this is different than DM rules interpretations. Rules interpretations come into play, not when the rules say, "the DM decides what happens at point X" but when the rules are unclear and the DM has to figure out how he wants to deal with them. Often DMs codify these in house rules.

DM rulings work well insofar as the system is set up to support and encourage them.

However, most aspects of 5e D&D are not set up like that. The rules themselves say "this is how it works," not, "at this point, the DM decides what happens based on considerations A, B, and C." This isn't rulings, this is interpretations.

Many of the rules of D&D are very clear, specific, and absolute. It doesn't say, "the DM chooses which ability score a player adds to an attack roll based on the way the player describes his character's attack," or "the DM might allow a character to make a saving throw (as chosen by the DM) to resist the effect of this spell..."

The game isn't designed to work like that--as a rulings based game. It is designed to function as a rules-based game with a few areas (setting DCs for ability checks is about the only one that comes to mind in the core system) that allow for rulings. Character creation and gameplay assumes a consistency of rules applications. With character classes designed around a set of features that interact with a core rules-based system, it is incoherent and bad design to leave rules unclear and/or contradictory and then just give permission to the DM to fix it as he chooses.

That's the problem here. The game is broken and they are saying, "ah...let the DM fix it."

Why is this a problem?

As a DM it is a problem because I feel I am doing a disservice to my players if I don't make it clear how I interpret vague rules from the beginning of the campaign (in the same way as I feel it would be unclear if I applied a bunch of house rules without telling them upfront). As a player, I would have trouble making a character if I didn't know how their class features were going to work until they happened to come up in play. Just imagine I'm making a character whose concept involves a lot of sneakiness both inside and outside of combat, based on my interpretation of how Stealth works. If my DM interprets stealth rules significantly different from how I do, I might end up not being able to do most of what I intended for my character. Why don't I just ask the DM before the campaign, you ask? Well, I probably would, but what about all the other rules he or she has to create their own interpretations for as the rules progress that neither of us might think of until they come up?

I hate putting my players into such a potential situation, so I have to write up my own clarifications for them before the campaign even starts. It just isn't fair that a player can memorize the PHB and still find out things work differently than they expect once they are 3 months into a campaign and have it damage their character concept.

The basic point I'm trying to get at is that going into a game of D&D with vague and ambiguous rules (as opposed to the perfectly acceptable areas where rulings are an explicit part of the rules) is a recipe for conflict in rules interpretations.

And this is coming from a DM who leans towards liberal interpretations in favor of his players, and always accepts rulings from DMs with whom he plays.
 

#1 is that if a character can effectively wield a staff and cast a spell at the same time or if a cleric can cast with a weapon and shield seems to be more than a "contingency"--it's likely to come up in every single game. Those kind of things should be in the rules and be clear. I don't think ambiguity here is a feature.
There's no ambiguity as far as I'm concerned. Both the rules and common sense indicate "yes" to the former and "no" to the latter.

In order to argue otherwise, you have to take a very unintuitive, semantically tortured approach to the rules. This is exactly the kind of approach you are not supposed to take in 5th edition, which means that is the argument that must be incorrect.

I get why this makes you uncomfortable, really I do, but the fact is, that's just the kind of game 5th edition is. I hope you can find a way to get good with it, because a lot of people feel this makes the game a lot stronger, not weaker.
 

And the text makes sense with his ruling. A subsequent round is the next round, or the round that follows in time, order, or place, according to the definition of subsequent.
That's not what subsequent means. It's not "the next" round, but any round that follows, be it the next one or a round 3 hours from now.
 

Into the Woods

Remove ads

Top