D&D General On gatekeeping and the 'live-streaming edition wars'

[Chaosmancer]

My concern is that any disagreement with or dislike of some aspect of the culture will be taken as gatekeeping by those who disagree with the disagreement.

Using my hockey analogy again, if I meet some people who are considering becoming hockey fans I don't see it as gatekeeping when I tell them they're idiots if they decide to cheer for the Leafs. A Leafs fan, however, might call me a gatekeeper for saying just this.

Thinking about this some, I think intent plays a big role here.

I am not a sports person, but I'll use the Ohio State/ Michigan rivalry because I know it. If I am walking around a store and see my friend dressed up in a Michigan Jersey, I might call out to them "Hey, stupid michigan fan, your team sucks" We are friends, we probably rib each other constantly, we are not intending anything more than to make each other laugh.

If I am walking through the store and see some random individual in a Michigan Jersey, I am most definitely not going to call out "Hey, stupid Michigan fan, your team sucks." Because I don't know them, I don't their personality, I don't know if they will take it as a joke, or if they will attack me because I'm insulting them, or if they are supporting the team for a highly personal reason (would feel real good to tell the mother of a player that her son sucks at football, despite being a professional, right?). At the very least, I'm being a jerk to this person I have never met. And, is that really the impression I want to give them of myself, and a team I like?


And, so I see your post. I feel like, in reality, you are saying someone would be an idiot to cheer for the Leafs because you are leaning into a rivalry, and culturally, fans of those two teams snipe at each other. But, if I am outside of the context of understanding sport team rivalry's? Then it just comes across as Canuck fans being judgemental and unaccepting of people who don't agree with them.

This isn't about telling people they can't rib each other or have opninions, but about making people aware that sometimes other people aren't in on it, and out of context, you are not sending the message you intend.

 

[Haffrung]

We should probably also avoid immediately ascribing malice as a motivation to those that ask questions or express differing opinions.

How are people going to work themselves into a state of righteous outrage unless they ascribe malice as a motivation to those who express different opinions?

 

[Lanefan]

You’re confusing the subject with the person.

‘I like/don’t like x“ is not gatekeeping.

’People who like/don’t like x are not real fans” is gatekeeping.

If I tell you you’re not a real D&D fan if you don’t watch streaming videos, you’d rightly object.

Ah, but there's a difference between my disagreeing with your statement (which in your eyes could be perfectly true, for all I know) and any attempt by me or anyone else to deny you the right to express it.

I could come right back and say you're not a real D&D fan because you've tainted yourself by playing (and writing!) other RPG systems. You'd object, of course, and fair enough; and we could call each other names until the cows come home.

My point is, on a more serious level, that denying the expression of these things serves no purpose other than to quash debate.

Because I’m gatekeeping.

Gatekeeping is about excluding people from the hobby. That’s why it’s called gatekeeping.

Yes, and it happens at the macro and micro level all the time, as a fully accepted procedure.

Ever denied someone permission to play in your game? That's gatekeeping.
You deny spammers permission to access the boards. That's gatekeeping (of the best sort!!!). Etc.

And keep in mind I'm generally a big-tent kind or person in life as well as gaming: people can do whatever they want, and the only time I'll generally object to anything is if-when I'm expected to join in. But there's still people I'll never allow back in any game I run.

Not all gatekeeping is bad.

 

[BookBarbarian]

Why be a gatekeeper when you can be a Keymaster?


Anyway I'm super happy streaming is bringing more people into the hobby, even if I don't watch gamestreams.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My concern is that any disagreement with or dislike of some aspect of the culture will be taken as gatekeeping by those who disagree with the disagreement.

Using my hockey analogy again, if I meet some people who are considering becoming hockey fans I don't see it as gatekeeping when I tell them they're idiots if they decide to cheer for the Leafs. A Leafs fan, however, might call me a gatekeeper for saying just this.

And in the D&D realm, I personally am not a fan of the streamed games as anything other than pure entertainment, as I don't think they accurately portray what happens around a typical table most of the time. Further, I wonder if those brought in to gaming by the streams are being given unrealistic expectations by what they've seen there.

Is it gatekeeping to say that? I don't think so...but my concern is that some would - perhaps maliciously - say it is

The hockey analogy is gatekeeping, but it's pretty mild. The DnD example depends on how you say it. And also, just let people come into dnd with whatever expectations and preferences they want. Hobby doesn't belong to you, me, or anyone else. The end.

 

[Eltab]

"-gates" are so last-decade ~

"-gates" are so 1970s.

 

[Beleriphon]

My concern is that any disagreement with or dislike of some aspect of the culture will be taken as gatekeeping by those who disagree with the disagreement.

Using my hockey analogy again, if I meet some people who are considering becoming hockey fans I don't see it as gatekeeping when I tell them they're idiots if they decide to cheer for the Leafs. A Leafs fan, however, might call me a gatekeeper for saying just this.

Cheering for the Toronto Maple Leafs is always dumb. "They'll win the Cup this year for sure!" is a regular refrain of any Leafs fan. But you could pick worse team for enthusiasm of its fans however, they are a crazy bunch. Most of them are in full awareness of how terrible their favourite team actually is.

Gatekeeping in your analogy would be more like asking what position they played in junior hockey, and then kind of dismissing or mocking our prospective fan for not having played hockey (maybe not even being able to skate) but wanted to get excited about participating in hockey as a fan. That's different then warning about the madness they might be in for as a Leafs fan.

And in the D&D realm, I personally am not a fan of the streamed games as anything other than pure entertainment, as I don't think they accurately portray what happens around a typical table most of the time. urther, I wonder if those brought in to gaming by the streams are being given unrealistic expectations by what they've seen there.

Is it gatekeeping to say that? I don't think so...but my concern is that some would - perhaps maliciously - say it is.

I would say no, you're making a valid criticism of a media format as a potential piece of advice to anybody that does want to play. I'd like to think most prospective players can see that CR and its ilk are basically Professional D&D in the way that NHL players in no way represent what you get if you go play adult house league (despite what some jerks that play think of themselves).

Gatekeeping is more akin to being a total douche about somebody saying they like D&D, but only watch CR or listen to a game podcast. Asking a question like "Hey, you don't play? Have you tried it?" is okay. At least from what I read from Morrus is saying.

However, going with some variant of: "That's not real D&D. Go play a game" is gatekeeping.

Ah, but there's a difference between my disagreeing with your statement (which in your eyes could be perfectly true, for all I know) and any attempt by me or anyone else to deny you the right to express it.

I could come right back and say you're not a real D&D fan because you've tainted yourself by playing (and writing!) other RPG systems. You'd object, of course, and fair enough; and we could call each other names until the cows come home.

My point is, on a more serious level, that denying the expression of these things serves no purpose other than to quash debate.

Yes, and it happens at the macro and micro level all the time, as a fully accepted procedure.

Ever denied someone permission to play in your game? That's gatekeeping.
You deny spammers permission to access the boards. That's gatekeeping (of the best sort!!!). Etc.

And keep in mind I'm generally a big-tent kind or person in life as well as gaming: people can do whatever they want, and the only time I'll generally object to anything is if-when I'm expected to join in. But there's still people I'll never allow back in any game I run.

Not all gatekeeping is bad.

There's a difference between gatekeeping my personal space, or Morrus' personal website, and acting like you're the best and final arbiter of what makes a "true" fan/participant in a hobby. I fully expect that I don't get to play in your game if I'm a jerk. That just means I can't play in your game, but it doesn't mean you decide if I'm a D&D fan at all.

There's the gatekeeping we're talking about, you are somehow taking it upon yourself to "protect" D&D from all those unwashed heathens out there that don't "get it".

 

[gyor]

Everybody needs to calm down, this is not the beginning of an edition war, as much fun as those can be (I kid), its just fans of various settings venting because after begging for an update literally before 5e for many of them, sometimes for decades, it feels Exandia is cutting in line (which is not actually true of course).

I feel really bad for Matt Mercier, but WotC deserves this for ignoring their fans for so long.

And most importantly it will blow over, they will vent, something else will come out, they will get distracted, then eventually WotC will start coming out with Setting books for their traditional settings, and while they will never be fans of Exandia, they will be focused on those books, not this one.

The edition wars would never have happened if 4e was just a brief detour for say a few books. In fact when 5e came out it basically died to out.

This is just venting, it has no staying power and honestly WotC could problemly cool things early by announcing the other Campaign Setting Books for this year and bonus points for announcing next years as well.

 

[cmad1977]

All I know is if you weren’t around for the McSorley stick incident in ‘93 then you’re not a real Kings fan.

 

[gyor]

All I know is if you weren’t around for the McSorley stick incident in ‘93 then you’re not a real Kings fan.

Agreed I am not a Kings fan at all, I root for the Maple Leafs, sort of.