D&D General On Grognardism...

[House_Of_Dexter]

You know the one thing OD&D and AD&D really got right...the fear of undead. Level Drain was something to be feared. The sight of Wights, Wraiths, Specters, and Vampires caused fighters and magic users to pee in their pants. The mechanics were horrendous, but the fear of their abilities worked. 5th edition just doesn't give that fear.

 

[Sacrosanct]

You know the one thing OD&D and AD&D really got right...the fear of undead. Level Drain was something to be feared. The sight of Wights, Wraiths, Specters, and Vampires caused fighters and magic users to pee in their pants. The mechanics were horrendous, but the fear of their abilities worked. 5th edition just doesn't give that fear.

Not just undead, but also green slimes, basilisks, medusa, etc.

 

[teitan]

One of the design principles of 5e was that it would be evergreen and designed to fit any style of D&D play and that a simple 1e style character could sit at a table with a 4e style character. This came across in the optional rules of the DMG which go to great lengths to demonstrate how to change the game to fit theater of the mind up to tactical play popular in 3 & 4e games and spell point variants etc. I always scratch my head when people act like these “rule modules” (as originally described) have never been published because the optional rules are just that, modules to drop in that adjust 5e’s base rules to fit a different style of play similar to older editions. Early on I think this was more understood by the D&D community because we had yet to receive the influx of players the game now enjoys.

The game already supports “grognard” play out of the box, but there has been an uptick because of the new players where these players think THEY tell the DM what can be used and dictate the nature of the game, abandoning all pretense of a cooperative experience or that a DM has the final say on the experience he is trying to impart to players. Rules clearly laid out in the core books as optional rules, like Feats, are expectations rather than an option and most of these rules are PHB based and not the DMG based optional systems.

This has created a default style of play for 5e that defines 5e in a very specific way that it’s easy to forget those original design implementations.

I had mentioned that MUlticlassing was an optional rule in my group before we started our campaign and two of the players, long time 5e players, didn’t believe me. They had to look it up. Whenever I point out some element that is an optional rule that is a part of the “standard 5e experience” they get surprised to see... it really is optional!

Default 5e, rules options filed off, plays closer to 1e or 2e than any edition since. It’s part of why it appealed to so many grognards after 3e and 4e failed to hook em and it was even this default ability to be houseruled and not break that helped to get word out and make the game what it is now.

I found this link to be awesome for listing what is an optional rule in the core books.

 

[S'mon]

Rules clearly laid out in the core books as optional rules, like Feats, are expectations rather than an option and most of these rules are PHB based and not the DMG based optional systems.

This has created a default style of play for 5e that defines 5e in a very specific way that it’s easy to forget those original design implementations.

This is definitely true, although I find a good bit of variation in what people expect to be 'default play'. More people seem to know that Multiclassing is an optional module than that Feats are an optional module. Relatively few non-GM players are aware of DMG options, with the single strong exception of Milestone/ad hoc levelling - in some quarters I'd say that was seen as the default.

Because 5e is so flexible, the culture around 5e varies a lot from place to place. The ENW '5e culture' seems to emphasise a more 3e play style of build optimisation, for instance. I got a huge shock seeing Cody of Taking 20 talking as if it was normal for PCs to have 3e/4e style free purchase of DMG magic items. Elsewhere the 5e culture seems dominated by Critical Role and pastel-coloured PC sketches by nice young geek ladies.

 

[teitan]

This is definitely true, although I find a good bit of variation in what people expect to be 'default play'. More people seem to know that Multiclassing is an optional module than that Feats are an optional module. Relatively few non-GM players are aware of DMG options, with the single strong exception of Milestone/ad hoc levelling - in some quarters I'd say that was seen as the default.

Because 5e is so flexible, the culture around 5e varies a lot from place to place. The ENW '5e culture' seems to emphasise a more 3e play style of build optimisation, for instance. I got a huge shock seeing Cody of Taking 20 talking as if it was normal for PCs to have 3e/4e style free purchase of DMG magic items. Elsewhere the 5e culture seems dominated by Critical Role and pastel-coloured PC sketches by nice young geek ladies.

And then you have Facebook 5e community where everything is rage and you better do what the players want and you’re a bad dm if you ban anything at the game.

yes. Someone did that to me when I was discussing my Theros campaign and integrating new players when my wife’s friend wanted to bring in her tiefling atheist cleric of Helm to my Theros campaign and how we worked out a character for her to to fit the campaign that suited her and fit the campaign instead. People raged on me. Invoked optional rules as default and told me I was wrong and an awful DM! Needless to say I am no longer a part of the official 5e D&D community there. I didn’t even argue.

 

[Sithlord]

My very first d20 is a 20-sided dice, numbered 0-9 twice, that I scratched in the 10's place. I still have it to this day and bring it out for special occasions.

I played half a session many many years ago and was frustrated that I missed everything. Then I looked closely at my dice and realized I was using a 0-9 20 sided dice. I was so ticked off.

 

[S'mon]

And then you have Facebook 5e community

I soon learned to avoid all Facebook 5e groups except for Dungeons & Dragons UK Facebook Groups which is well moderated and has far less frothing lunacy than I experienced in the US-centric groups.

 

[teitan]

I soon learned to avoid all Facebook 5e groups except for Dungeons & Dragons UK Facebook Groups which is well moderated and has far less frothing lunacy than I experienced in the US-centric groups.

Yes in general online communities are toxic and waiting for people to say something with Facebook but I’ve found Twitter to be far worse because it allows total anonymity and the rage is just... I feel for Mike.

 

[teitan]

Listening to grognard podcasts, outside of the 3e-4e era, it’s a lot of talk about feel and especially lore. Listened to a podcast from pre-5e the other day and the guy was talking about dragons with a DCC group. DCC was new and the DCC group was asking the grogger about his thoughts on the game and they asked him specifically about how it handles dragons. And he was just like ‘oh it’s one of thoooose games where “oh we have our own dragons”’ and it was a very lore based reticence than anything mechanical even though he was not a Pathfinder or 3.5 fan.

with 5e criticisms from grognards it all seems more based on lore changes than really the mechanical differences. For me that’s a lot of it as well. I’m glad the Xmas tree is gone and that magic item shops aren’t a default expectation. I refuse to have a magic item shop but I will have an alchemist selling potions or a sage with scrolls but magic item shops are so video game and encourage a consumer based game design where they are just part of the grind. Even in my 3e games I used a rule I found in Dragon Mag where items would get more powerful as the PCs leveled up. It made for more interesting storytelling. Even now my players love when they unlock a new power.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

That also happened to a player in one of my games, so don't feel too badly about it.

I played half a session many many years ago and was frustrated that I missed everything. Then I looked closely at my dice and realized I was using a 0-9 20 sided dice. I was so ticked off.

I've joined and left so many D&D groups Facebook groups. My favorite is currently on temporary? permanent? hiatus, too. OSR groups seem to concentrate the toxicity, but sadly there's plenty to go around outside of those, too.