D&D General On Grognardism...

[Ralif Redhammer]

Also a gamer that started in the 80s here, though I don't call myself a grognard. One thing I will say about my observations of D&D from the late 70s (and to an extent, into the early 80s), is that it was much less codified. While there will always be a gonzo element to D&D, I think back then there were fewer defined ideas as to what fantasy was, and what gaming was. You would see adventures where androids would show up from another planet, or a laser gun could be found in the lich's tomb. There would be a tavern in the middle of a dungeon, or a surface tavern might have a minotaur for a bartender. You could just as easily run across some treacherous hobb...err, halflings as a band of goblins.

Would I say it's better? No, just different.

 

[Sacrosanct]

It isn't the rules that most Grognard's remember with fondness - the 5E rules are almost universally superior to all prior editions. It was the environment.

There was no internet. There were no countless forums, tweets, etc... resolving rules issues. People did not spend 2 hours a day discussingt he game on the internet. They read the books. They occasionally referenced them, and they played. They interpreted vague rules. They made up new rules to path holes in the rules. The DM was the authority on the game. The players in the group and the DM formed the universe of the game, without concern that sage advice made a different recommendation on interpretation of the rules. It was intimate.

All information flowed downhill. The books (and Dragon Magazine) gave us the rules, the DM interpreted them, and the players accepted them (sometimes with feedback, but it was all being determined within the group).

I think it is similar to the difference between owning your own small business and working for a massive corporation. It is either all about your little world, or it is part of something massive - but that something massive leaves you far less control and ownership.

I think those of us that thrived in that early era still carry more of that individuality into our games with Homebrew monsters, homebrew spells variant rules, and deeper storytelling. We had 10 to 20 years training at it before the internet trained us away from it.

If you wanted to yell at Skip Williams or Kim Mohan for how they clarified a rule in DRAGON, you couldn't do it via Tweet instantly. You had to wait 2 months to mail a letter, them to get it, them to respond it, and the next issue to come out

Yeah, we're the generation of 6-8 week delivery, none of this "2 day PRIME shipping" stuff .

 

[Umbran]

So this brings me to the grognards of Enworld. I am always baffled at the sheet amount of words in support of RPG gaming having peaked sometime in the late 70s, with no system since that time being in overall comparison sake "better" for them.

For some folks, that original way of doing things really does work spectacularly. And it is awesome that they found a thing they love that much.

Edit to add: I've been playing long enough to know that originally "grognard" referred to those that came to D&D through the wargame roots, but not long enough to actually be a grognard by that definition.

 

[Fenris-77]

I think the operative term here might be skilled play. There's something different about stripping away a lot of layers of rules and letting player creativity and sheer bloody mindedness take the lead. IMO, current OSR games donthis better than the original did anyway, so that's cool. For me it's just one kind of gaming I enjoy amongst many.

 

[commandercrud]

Because D&D then was challenging. Now everyone's Superman at level 1.

 

[Fenris-77]

Because D&D then was challenging. Now everyone's Superman at level 1.

He said, yelling at clouds...

 

[DemoMonkey]

I think the number of people who genuinely think old (or OSR rules) are written better than 5E rules is very small. Because ...welll... they aren't.

But they do support a very different play process/experience. And some people enjoy that.

A typewriter will never be as efficient and versatile a writing tool as a laptop. But it will have an unmistakable tactility to it and produce hardcopy at the end. Is that better?

It depends on what you value.

 

[D1Tremere]

It isn't the rules that most Grognard's remember with fondness - the 5E rules are almost universally superior to all prior editions. It was the environment.

There was no internet. There were no countless forums, tweets, etc... resolving rules issues. People did not spend 2 hours a day discussingt he game on the internet. They read the books. They occasionally referenced them, and they played. They interpreted vague rules. They made up new rules to path holes in the rules. The DM was the authority on the game. The players in the group and the DM formed the universe of the game, without concern that sage advice made a different recommendation on interpretation of the rules. It was intimate.

All information flowed downhill. The books (and Dragon Magazine) gave us the rules, the DM interpreted them, and the players accepted them (sometimes with feedback, but it was all being determined within the group).

I think it is similar to the difference between owning your own small business and working for a massive corporation. It is either all about your little world, or it is part of something massive - but that something massive leaves you far less control and ownership.

I think those of us that thrived in that early era still carry more of that individuality into our games with Homebrew monsters, homebrew spells variant rules, and deeper storytelling. We had 10 to 20 years training at it before the internet trained us away from it.

I think this post is really what I see when people discuss old vs. new D&D (or perhaps RPGs in general). It isn't that the game has changed. All of the things this poster describes can still be electively engaged in. The difference is that now people need to choose this course, where previously it was mandatory. Many people who played in the old days grew older, and grew tired of DM power trips, forced home-brew worlds, one group being the only game in town, and other aspects that come along with being in a niche hobby at that particular time in history.
Now people have options, voices, and many paths to their own desired play. That removes the necessity to put up with a lot of the childish narcissism that I remember from my early days. That is not to say that there is anything wrong with games that place the DM as an antagonist, emphasize home-brew worlds/rules, or restrict authority to the DM alone. It is just that one should see this type of game as an option, not as a prison. Modern games are more about a shift in audience and norms than rules.

 

[Lanefan]

So this brings me to the grognards of Enworld. I am always baffled at the sheet amount of words in support of RPG gaming having peaked sometime in the late 70s, with no system since that time being in overall comparison sake "better" for them.

I don't really have a question, but more of an invitation for discussion. If you think RPG design peaked in the late 70s, what about that design speaks to you so strongly?

In very broad-brush terms, I'd say it's that in early design much more of the mechanical side was - or seemed to be - handled by the DM where in later design (with 3e being the tipping point) they've been more and more shifted on to the players. This takes away from a certain sense of mystery which, when I first started playing, I really liked.

Add in an increasing amount and complexity in said mechanics*, and it stops being fun at some point.

As a player, I don't want this. As a DM, I'm happy to deal with the mechanics side of things and thus take that off my players' plates.

* - simple example: the length of time and amount of decision-making it takes to roll up a character in each edition.

 

[Campbell]

Can we say that the nature of the mechanics has pretty much generally improved over time?

I'm the last person anyone would accuse of being a grognard, but I do not think that's really true. I do not see a general trend of D&D design improving over time. I think 5e is a decent game and definitely a huge improvement over 3e and basically a side grade vis a vis 4e. I basically consider 3e and 2e downgrades over their predecessor. I think the B/X branch is probably the best designed iteration from either TSR or Wizards.