On homogeneity, or how I finally got past the people talking past each other part

[Cadfan]

Somewhere in this thread, about the time people began talking about the power structure system and ended by talking about a superhero team repurposed to be all green lanterns, I totally lost track of who was talking about in game homogeneity and who was talking about mechanical homogeneity. I kind of suspect that artsy stories about in game homogeneity are being used to emphasize unrelated points about mechanical homogeneity.

 

[Reigan]

Clearly you are looking for a very different gaming experience than I am.
I want the best possible - on top of my imagination.

To oversimplify things slightly, an rpg is made up of 3 things:

Character generation/level up.
In-game mechanics such as combat.
Roleplaying.

I played 3e from 2001 to 2009, in that time I played in four campaigns, two as dm, two as player. Effectively, I only got to play two characters, one for over 5 years. So all this character choice simply was not relevant to me.

What was important, considering I was stuck with the same character for many years was game play. When you do that the flaws in the rules are readily apparent, there is no getting away from them. Skill points invested in climb and swim made redundent by cheap magic, any viable combat options getting whittled down to "full attack" as nothing else works, uber spells that can completely overshadow anything you can do etc.

I think a lot of people who don't have the problems with 3e like I do were able to avoid its issue by changing characters. "It doesn't matter that fighters suck because next week I'm playing a wizard".

Roleplaying as very little bearing on game mechanics.

At the moment, 4e is the best possible for me. Maybe if I get stuck playing my current character for another 5 years I might not feel the same way!

 

[BryonD]

I think a lot of people who don't have the problems with 3e like I do were able to avoid its issue by changing characters. "It doesn't matter that fighters suck because next week I'm playing a wizard".

I know a lot of people who still play 3E. This is flat wrong.

I'm sorry your game sucked so bad. But you are making a substantial mistake in presuming that your experience is representative of mine.

 

[BryonD]

Roleplaying as very little bearing on game mechanics.

As I said, twice now in this very thread, role playing is not between the covers of a book.

However, given a choice between a rule set that CAN model the RP the player provides and a rule set that CAN NOT, I choose the former.

 

[FireLance]

Generic food metaphor away!

I see the homogeneity in 4e as similar to the homogeneity you get in a restaurant which only serves four-course meals comprising a starter, a soup, a main course, and a dessert. To extend the metaphor further, it also serves four basic types of cuisine: French, Italian, Chinese, and Indian. In addition, almost every main course will include some form of carbohydrates.

There is still quite a large variety in the type of meals you can get by mixing and matching your starter, soup, main course and dessert choices, but some people miss the flexibility of say, not ordering a soup and getting an extra dessert, or getting a starter from the French options and a main course from the Chinese options.

 

[Nellisir]

There's also something else that enhances the image of homogeneity in 4E... all the powers are basically just X*[W] or X*Y [insert damage type here] and some "rider" effect (slide, push, grant +W to Z, daze, etcetera). Alternatively, the "rider" effect is replaced by just a bigger pool of damage dice. Furthermore, most Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies I've seen seem to have variations of the same ability, e.g. "When you use an Action Point, you...". They may play differently, but on paper it looks to me like they're just alternate class features for the same class.

I think this is an excellent point. How many variations of this are possible?

Edit: And...I'm not sure how this works in 4e. Are there still quirky "minor" abilities? One of the mixed benefits of earlier D&D editions was the occasional "minor" ability, like better resistance to fey charms. I don't think it's a stretch to say that in most campaigns, that one didn't get a lot of use. Still, it was there as a nice little Easter Egg the DM could throw in every few levels. In 4e, if all the character have the same number and "class" (daily/encounter/utility), where do the little extras fit in?

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I think this is an excellent point. How many variations of this are possible?

Edit: And...I'm not sure how this works in 4e. Are there still quirky "minor" abilities? One of the mixed benefits of earlier D&D editions was the occasional "minor" ability, like better resistance to fey charms. I don't think it's a stretch to say that in most campaigns, that one didn't get a lot of use. Still, it was there as a nice little Easter Egg the DM could throw in every few levels. In 4e, if all the character have the same number and "class" (daily/encounter/utility), where do the little extras fit in?

More than anything else, quirky "minor" abilities tend to be found in magic items in 4E.

 

[Wik]

Generic food metaphor away!

I see the homogeneity in 4e as similar to the homogeneity you get in a restaurant which only serves four-course meals comprising a starter, a soup, a main course, and a dessert. To extend the metaphor further, it also serves four basic types of cuisine: French, Italian, Chinese, and Indian. In addition, almost every main course will include some form of carbohydrates.

There is still quite a large variety in the type of meals you can get by mixing and matching your starter, soup, main course and dessert choices, but some people miss the flexibility of say, not ordering a soup and getting an extra dessert, or getting a starter from the French options and a main course from the Chinese options.

Dude, that is one messed up restaurant.

 

[Rechan]

More than anything else, quirky "minor" abilities tend to be found in magic items in 4E.

Minor and VERY specialized (not only by use, but class usefulness).

That's one of my minor annoyances about 4e - there are few items that Anyone could really benefit from, compared to the class or build specific ones. Few items the party is going to quibble over when the treasure is diviied up. As opposed to ye olde ring of protection, for instance.

 

[Remathilis]

Generic food metaphor away!

I see the homogeneity in 4e as similar to the homogeneity you get in a restaurant which only serves four-course meals comprising a starter, a soup, a main course, and a dessert. To extend the metaphor further, it also serves four basic types of cuisine: French, Italian, Chinese, and Indian. In addition, almost every main course will include some form of carbohydrates.

There is still quite a large variety in the type of meals you can get by mixing and matching your starter, soup, main course and dessert choices, but some people miss the flexibility of say, not ordering a soup and getting an extra dessert, or getting a starter from the French options and a main course from the Chinese options.

Good, here's another try.

Say you go to a Sundae Shop and they have four types of Ice Cream (chocolate, Vanilla, Strawberry, or Mint) and four toppings (caramel, hot fudge, butterscotch, strawberry syrup).

Lots of people will go in, see the options, and decide to order something. Maybe it will be a chocolate-caramel sundae, or a classic hot-fudge sundae, or perhaps a a double-strawberry sundae and be happy with such good, simple fair.

Others will come in and want a cookie-dough sundae. "Sorry," the owner says, "we don't carry cookie-dough ice cream. How bout some hot-fudge mint?"

Another will come in and want rocky road. Or peanut-butter fudge. Or cherry-cordial. Some will want sprinkles, or maple-butter. Some will want frozen yogurt, custard, or italian ice and leave dejected. The truly frustrated guy leaves after trying to order a banana split.

While in theory the 4 ice creams and 4 topping create a large variety of sundaes, Its frustratingly limited when all you want is a freaking cookie-dough ice cream & hot fudge sundae!