On homogeneity, or how I finally got past the people talking past each other part

[Vegepygmy]

There is still quite a large variety in the type of meals you can get by mixing and matching your starter, soup, main course and dessert choices, but some people miss the flexibility of say, not ordering a soup and getting an extra dessert, or getting a starter from the French options and a main course from the Chinese options.

It's more like I miss the flexibility of skipping dinner altogether and going out to see a movie instead. 4E just makes too many assumptions about what it is I want to do in the first place.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Minor and VERY specialized (not only by use, but class usefulness).

That's one of my minor annoyances about 4e - there are few items that Anyone could really benefit from, compared to the class or build specific ones. Few items the party is going to quibble over when the treasure is diviied up. As opposed to ye olde ring of protection, for instance.

I've been building a list of these. We call them "Generic Items of Win". Obvious things like Vicious Weapons, Iron Armbands of Power and such, and somewhat less obvious things like Acrobat Boots(stand as minor action At-Will), Viper Belt(resist 5 poison is nice on a lv4 belt), Circlet of Second Chances(head slot: reroll a save), the new Gauntlets of Blood(+2/+4/+6 damage to bloodied enemies), and the list goes on. Just little things almost anyone can use, to fill up the empty slots.

 

[Diamondeye]

I simply cannot get past - and that's cannot get past as in cannot even stand to read the 4e PHB for more than 10 minutes - the mechanical homogenaity of 4e.

For me, 4e's claim to balance is bad. I do not want a balanced game. That eliminates its main selling point.

Furthermore, I don't want to pick a "paragon path" at 10, or an epic destiny at 20. (Even the terms are silly to me) I don't want to be given a choice of 2 at-wills, 1 encounter and 1 daily at level 1.

I want different mechanics between classes. If all classes have the same mechanics, they will all play the same to me even if their exact effects are somewhat different. The 4e wizard is the most serious example of this; a wizard that has "powers" isn't a wizard to me at all. It's.. well I don't know, but not a wizard.

I've even tried thinking "okay what houserules would I need to make 4e work?" and invariably it's essentially 3e. The first thing I do is ban all paragon paths, epic destinies, and at-will abilities, and ALL powers for wizards and clerics (I haven't looked at classes outside the PHB). Then I mandate they use the 3.5 spells in place of their powers and about that time it occurs to me it's simpler to just stay with 3.5.

 

[AllisterH]

One reason I don't play it a lot is that I see the differences as tiny, the variety and tactical choices as uninteresting.

.

This is I think the crux of the argument. I'll actually illustrate using an example FROM the actual game (these restaurant/carpentry analogies are beyond me)

Take for example what Remalithis used in the other thread. Flame Strike versus Fireball.

From what I gathered from Remathilis (correct me if I'm wrong) To many people, they're the exact same spell with what people consider a neglibile difference.

However, to me, there's huge tactical differences between the two. Even if you factor out the differences in range and area of effect, the spells perfectly encapsulate how 4e plays differently at the table.

With Flame Strike, you actually want to invest in resources that play with the saving throw mechanic so the rider lasts longer. Similarly, Flame Strike being able to hit ONLY enemies versus Fireball that hits ALL creatures playsa huge tactical decision point in battle.

In actual play, there's LOTS of times when Fireball is better than Flame Strike and the reverse is also true, and that's a prime example of how the actual choices matter at the tactical level.

 

[Rechan]

In the other thread I picked on Shadowrun, but I feel like doing it again.

Namely I just picked up the book, and the million little subsystems just made my brain leak out of my ears. It's really overwhelming to a new person. The system is more skill based (and you pick which skills you use), but all the skills have tons of little subsystems (I'm looking at you, Magic and Technology).

 

[thecasualoblivion]

This is I think the crux of the argument. I'll actually illustrate using an example FROM the actual game (these restaurant/carpentry analogies are beyond me)

Take for example what Remalithis used in the other thread. Flame Strike versus Fireball.

From what I gathered from Remathilis (correct me if I'm wrong) To many people, they're the exact same spell with what people consider a neglibile difference.

However, to me, there's huge tactical differences between the two. Even if you factor out the differences in range and area of effect, the spells perfectly encapsulate how 4e plays differently at the table.

With Flame Strike, you actually want to invest in resources that play with the saving throw mechanic so the rider lasts longer. Similarly, Flame Strike being able to hit ONLY enemies versus Fireball that hits ALL creatures playsa huge tactical decision point in battle.

In actual play, there's LOTS of times when Fireball is better than Flame Strike and the reverse is also true, and that's a prime example of how the actual choices matter at the tactical level.

It also differs in the context of the classes themselves. The two spells are big fire nukes that deal big damage. The Wizard power list is chock full of big nukes, as are the other Controllers for the most part. Fireball has a very large area of effect, and does somewhat unremarkable damage with no additional effect, and is a rather generic(and suboptimal) Wizard spell. They have better options. On the other hand, Flame Strike is pretty much the only big AoE nuke Clerics get around those levels, as most of their powers are single target buff/heal allies or debuff/make vulnerable powers against enemies. In addition, few of the other leaders get a Wizard style big nuke like this for the most part.

For the Wizard, its a generic choice among a multitude. For Clerics/Leaders, its a standout change of pace power.

 

[catsclaw227]

I didn't say it was time wisely spent. I'm a physics grad student, which keeps me plenty busy, but D&D has been one of my major outlets during that time. That's not to downplay the amount of time you spend on the important things in your life which I don't have (namely wife and kids) but I merely point out that it's not the amount of time I have, just how I've spent what I do have. I played 3.5 for about 4 years (all of it in grad school), and I happened to record as a template just about every build (PC, NPC, and just-for-fun) I ever made or strongly assisted. The total is around 150 or ~3/month on average. That's a lot, but I wouldn't characterize it as ridiculous. (Perhaps you'll disagree, which is fine.)

Nah.... I don't think there's anything ridiculous about spending time doing what you like, especially if it is an outlet to beat back the grind of life.

And when you look back 20 years later, those old templates will give you a really nice wave of nostalgic wonder. I get it when I look at all my 1e stuff: notes, DM snippets, NPC's that are not stat-blocks, but instead paragraphs of personality, old maps, old character sheets and adventure notes. Decadent city of Hoard, the City State of Polarticus, Anu Habiib, Ekol-son, the plains-wanderers of Taal. Good stuff!

 

[Rechan]

I've been building a list of these.

Your list contains my interests and I would like to sign up to your newsletter.

 

[catsclaw227]

Namely I just picked up the book, and the million little subsystems just made my brain leak out of my ears. It's really overwhelming to a new person. The system is more skill based (and you pick which skills you use), but all the skills have tons of little subsystems (I'm looking at you, Magic and Technology).

I get major brain leak from RIFTS. That rule-set sends me into a tailspin.

But some people absolutely swear by it. I have no idea why, but K.S. has his following, and they love his game system and publishing style.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Your list contains my interests and I would like to sign up to your newsletter.

Maybe I'll post it over on the 4E section. I have a list of items from levels 1-20 at this point. It'd actually be easy if I were to just post the list instead of explaining everything.

EDIT: I'm not quite done with Paragon tier just yet. Haven't done Wondrous Items, Tattoos and Rings yet.

ALSO ALSO EDIT: I've been doing this at work with just the books, not the compendium/builder, so the list is just from PHB1, PHB2, AV1, and AV2, which is 90% of the items in the game but there are some omissions.