D&D General On the subject of Hobgoblins

[Tonguez]

Why have separate gnomes, dwarves, and halflings all filling the smaller than human side? Why separate Ogre, Troll, and Bugbear? Why separate Chimerea, Griffons, Hippogriffs, and Wyverns and the other mish-mash flying creatures from each other?

Well yes, I've never understood the purpose of halflings and imc do ask Why have them seperate. Its a reason why halflings imc live in the fae realms and why gnomes are only 1 foot tall. It gives them a niche other than being small.

I'd also consider Troll abilities are such that it is easily distinguishable from Ogre at a mechanical level (Bugbear less so, hence why they arent goblinoids imc but rather Apemen)

As to monsters I prefer the Birthright approach of making Monsters Unique mutated plot points whose very presence defines their domain/lair. If I were ever to use a Chimera thats the approach I'd take. That said I've used both griffons and wyverns (lesser dragons) as natural species because of the cool factor and because they have demonstrably different abilities.

So your argument is basically this...

"Why does the world have more than one kind of carnivora that are larger than mongooses and smaller than bears?

All this nonsense about badgers, racoons, wolves, jaguars, cheetahs, hyenas, seals.... they are all very obviously just names for the same identical species!! Some are just slightly more organized than others."

I think that more or less encapsulates what I just read there.

argument to the point of absurdity kind of misses the point, but thats not entirely surprising.

but lets consider your selection seals being aquatic are distinct from wolves, jaguars, cheetahs, hyenas all of which also occupy a different environmental niche and have distinctive abilities (cheetahs speed, wolves pack hunting) that distinguish them. This is not the case with Orcs and Hobgoblins

Hell... Dwarfs, Elves (all 6,743,841 flavors of the stupid things), Goliaths, Dragonborn, Warforged, Tieflings, Aasimar, Genasi, Tabaxi, Kenku, Yuan-ti, Changelings, Kalashtar, Shifters, Gith and.... oh, yeah... humans.... all of which are covered by exactly the same description of "stronger than goblins but smaller than bugbears" and therefore they are all the same identical species. So what is the use of any of them? We should just get rid of all of these useless versions of the same identical species.

I do agree with you there are far too many different flavour of Elf and most should be eliminated But it is clear that Goliaths, Dragonborn and Warforged are distinctive beings with distinct mechanical differences beyond mere size. Orcs and Hobs dont really have those mechanical differences to an appreciable degree. I'd also encourage you to consider the race palette a bit more critically, just because there is a huge list of creatures to choose from doesnt mean you need to use them all.

The game should just be goblins and bugbears.... and maybe the occasional human (which really just covers everything above as they are, by your definition, the same identical species).

You are free to play the game how you wish of course, but I would encourage you to consider a race palette that makes sense for you.

 

[Minigiant]

I must confess, I’ve never been entirely comfortable with the Asian-coding of bugbears either. Like, I’m all for diversifying the cultural influences of our fantasy worlds, and if they’re a playable race with no fixed alignment, great. But something about using cultural signifiers of a human culture for a race of non-humans doesn’t feel right to me. Maybe if they more closely resembled something from Japanese folklore, coding them as Japanese would make more sense? But to me it just feels strange, especially as it’s only this one group of goblinoids, but goblins and bugbears don’t get the same treatment. That makes the focus on militarism and discipline extra conspicuous. Coupled with the Asian coding, it ends up playing into some Asian stereotypes in a way that I just find a little uncomfortable.

To be clear, I’m not trying to say anyone who likes Asian-coded bugbears is wrong or that they’re doing a racism. I’ve never heard any Asian people express any such concerns about the depiction of bugbears in D&D, so this is entirely a personal hangup. But I don’t do it in my own games because it feels weird to me for the reasons above.

I think having Asian inspired good humaniods often fixes this. The Asian coding or X coding tends to be a problem when they are the only example of a real life cultures aspects in a game or other medium.

Bugbear ninjas fighting human ninjas fighting halfling ninjas and no one cares.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think having Asian inspired good humaniods often fixes this. The Asian coding or X coding tends to be a problem when they are the only example of a real life cultures aspects in a game or other medium.

Bugbear ninjas fighting human ninjas fighting halfling ninjas and no one cares.

Good point!

 

[GreenTengu]

but lets consider your selection seals being aquatic are distinct from wolves, jaguars, cheetahs, hyenas all of which also occupy a different environmental niche and have distinctive abilities (cheetahs speed, wolves pack hunting) that distinguish them. This is not the case with Orcs and Hobgoblins

One lives in hot climates, one lives in cold climates. One lives in cities, one lives in the wild. One represents the dangers of totalitarianism, one represents the dangers of chaos. One is organized and calculating, the other is spiritual and emotional.

How can you claim they represent the same ecological niche at all?

Sure-- they can both be opponents starting from the earliest levels, but given that you can can level up and humanoid creature with class levels-- that just means that they can be opponents regardless of level while most other enemies can only come into the picture after one reaches certain levels.

Just because they don't have any particular super-human abilities? Well-- neither do humans. Nor do Elves or Dwarves, for that matter-- they are all basically just mildly altered humans as far as most things are concerned. Tieflings and Aasimar don't do anything particularly special that can't be picked up by humans with a slight level-dip into the right class. Same is more or less true of Gith.

And, really, if the PC versions were properly built-- maybe a quick level dip into Barbarian could allow a human to pick up what an Orc does and maybe a quick dip into Bard or Fighter could allow them to pick up what the Hobgoblin does, just the same as it is pretty easy to emulate the Aasimar or Tiefling or Elf or Dwarf from the basic human start.

The basic mechanics of it all shouldn't matter nearly as much as the narrative of it. And narratively the concepts over the last 20 years have grown to be worlds apart.

If you can understand there is a difference between a hyena and a snow leopard in ecological niche beyond "better organized", then you should be able to see the difference between Orcs and Hobgoblins no problem.

Orcs are snow leopards, Hobgoblins are hyenas.

You throw an Orc onto the savanah among that competition, they are screwed and will get killed themselves killed in a day trying to take on a lion. Throw a Hobgoblin along in the Himalayan mountains alone and they will be totally lost and starve or freeze to death in a day.

 

[Eltab]

Red Hand of Doom (3e adventure) features a hobgoblin army organized from existing tribes by a Cleric of Tiamat. The adventure pulls from existing hobgoblin lore but offers the chance to put your own stamp on "what hobgoblins are like".

For instance, the Bard boss is female and is writing an opera in her spare time. As DM, fill in her notes.

 

[Hriston]

Nice. Where do bugbears and orogs fit in for you? Are they also a product of a/the dark lord’s breeding program? Do they come from goblin stock as well?

Ultimately, yes to both questions, but there's also breeding going on in situ of course.

Bugbears certainly have an Uruk element in their makeup to account for their size. They remind me a bit of the swift running, soft-shoed goblins that go after Thorin & co. to ambush them in The Hobbit. It's conceivable that the Dark Lord bred a type of "giant" goblin as an ambusher.

Orogs I regard as a cross between orcs and ogres, which could happen due to a natural affinity between the two peoples, but which also lends itself very well to the idea of controlled breeding. I am reminded in this case of the Olog-hai seen at the Battle of the Morannon, which are a result of Sauron's troll-breeding .

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I must confess, I’ve never been entirely comfortable with the Asian-coding of bugbears either. Like, I’m all for diversifying the cultural influences of our fantasy worlds, and if they’re a playable race with no fixed alignment, great. But something about using cultural signifiers of a human culture for a race of non-humans doesn’t feel right to me. Maybe if they more closely resembled something from Japanese folklore, coding them as Japanese would make more sense? But to me it just feels strange, especially as it’s only this one group of goblinoids, but goblins and bugbears don’t get the same treatment. That makes the focus on militarism and discipline extra conspicuous. Coupled with the Asian coding, it ends up playing into some Asian stereotypes in a way that I just find a little uncomfortable.

To be clear, I’m not trying to say anyone who likes Asian-coded bugbears is wrong or that they’re doing a racism. I’ve never heard any Asian people express any such concerns about the depiction of bugbears in D&D, so this is entirely a personal hangup. But I don’t do it in my own games because it feels weird to me for the reasons above.

My races are all free-willed and not especially prone to any given alignment. If Hobs were prone to being Lawful Evil, I’d never code them toward any given broad ethnic-cultural grouping.

Bugbears largely have arboreal cultures, and in the region near the Hob homeland they are influenced by Japanese culture but even more loosely than Hobs, and branching away from there start to be more influenced by Polynesia or by Mezoamerica, depending on where they are.

Goblins tend to be nomadic, wear masks, and have influences of Chinese folklore near the Hob-land, often living on the fringes of Hob society, but other times being integrated as crafts folk and artists, or as spies. In the Mesoamerican island chain where the game currently takes place, Goblins have integrated somewhat with the local Fey, the Loa, and have in turn influenced local culture more than most folk realize.

The Hobs themselves are sort of the human standings of their home region, the more ubiquitous folk of the area, and the most culturally dominant and thus the most culturally diverse. (The world so far has no humans)

 

[Ancalagon]

I was giving this some further thought. One thing that helps is not to accept the old "X were evil/other" tropes when studying history. My Turks/hobgoblins were not evil - they were expansionists and proud yes, but not evil.

I then thoughts "in fact in history there were very few "evil" people. The Nazis in WWII sure, but..."

But then I thought about what happened during history and well... there has been a LOT of awful things done hasn't there been? Genocides, mass slavery...

Maybe the evil race should be the humans...

 

[Voadam]

The classic hobgoblins. Gotta love the blue noses.

Description: The hairy hides of hobgoblins range from dark reddish-brown to gray black. Their faces are bright red-orange to red. Large males will have blue-red noses. Eyes are either yellowish or dark brown. Teeth are yellowed white to dirty yellow. Hobgoblins favor bright, bloody colors and black leather. They keep weapons well polished. Hobgoblins live for 60 years.

 

[Cadence]

The classic hobgoblins. Gotta love the blue noses.

I always thought the ones on B2 were orcs... that's kind of embarrassing!!