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D&D General On the subject of Hobgoblins

Hriston

Dungeon Master of Middle-earth
Is this just an issue with people who grew up with the recent Lord of the Rings movies and just are incapable of getting their mind out of that?
Like none of the people having an issue here have been around D&D for the last 25 years-- you just went from those Lord of the Rings movies and popped into D&D and expected D&D to be exactly the same and are just functionally incapable of grasping the idea of diversity among the traditional bad guy people?

Like none of you ever played, for example, an MMORPG such as EverQuest or World of WarCraft?

If one were to rewind way back, 30 years ago, to AD&D-- then, sure, there was hardly any difference between them.

But the moment WotC took over, from 3.0 onward-- there was a very clear artistic direction. Hobgoblins are warm-skinned (yellow to red) and have sort of a cat-like look, but not enough to be full on furries-esque cat-people like Tabaxi are. Meanwhile Orcs were cool-skinned (green to blue) pig-like people, but again-- not like full on Mrs. Piggy, just slightly pig-like influence. Hobgoblins had proper full on smithed armor while Orcs wore hide and chain. More was expanded on the Orcs so that we knew they lived on the colder regions, high in the mountains or deep in the caverns. That they bred with not only humans, but also Ogres... meanwhile edition on edition, it was advanced that the Hobgoblins were civilized empire-builders.

So we have these mildly pig-people barbarians who are smaller ogres and yet here we have a few people continually insisting that they are "big goblins". That hasn't been the case for 25 years of Dungeons and Dragons. There is virtually no crossover between goblins and orcs at all.

How do you point to orange cat-people and green pig-people and insist they are exactly the same thing, but you have no problem with Halflings and Gnomes who are just short humans whose main substantially different trait is that one is usually portrayed as a bit younger and tend to be thieves and one is portrayed as a bit older with beards and usually wizards?

One wants to argue that when you break it down to just saw enemy mechanics where something has 16 hit points and you hit it with a sword or arrow and it dies and drops loot... yeah, I suppose. But in terms of actual world building, there is a world of difference here. The only real similarity here is that they are two human-sized races that are often seen at level 1 just like all of the PC races and yet get pegged as "just monsters" rather than properly getting developed as the kind of regular denizens of the worlds that one would expect to see in an average party.

But there has, at least on the narrative side, been considerable development of them over the past 25 years of D&D. And that seems to be the one hang-up here-- that you can't get over Lord of the Rings and insist that D&D perfectly emulate Lord of the Rings and not have a single additional element beyond the limited scope seen in those movies.
I’m not sure if your post is in response to mine, but what issue are you talking about?
 

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billd91

Hobbit on Quest
Of course-- there is pathfinder that seems regressive on the issue and made them both just gray skinned humanoids of roughly the same height and build and general demeanor. But we aren't talking about Pathfinder here.
That’s kind of a weird take on it since PF makes their demeanor pretty different.
 

I typically have hobgoblins be martial goblinoids, having fighters, arcane-gish characters, and other martial characters in their society. They are disciplined and patient, but have no better manners than goblins or bugbears. They're just more lawful, like the romans.

I always run the three main types of goblinoids as different sides of a coin (a 3 sided coin, I guess). They're all evil, conniving, ill-mannered, and somewhat related, but have a few things that distinctively separate them.
  1. Goblins are neutral evil, the smallest of the 3, and focus on Dexterity and Charisma more and are typically rogues and fighters (stealth, stealing, sleight of hands, deception, etc).
  2. Bugbears are chaotic evil, the largest and most brutish of the 3 goblinoids, and focus on Strength and Wisdom, most often being Barbarians, Champion Fighters, and Rangers (hunters, trackers, ambushers).
  3. Hobgoblins are lawful evil, the medium sized goblinoids, and are the more strategical-minded of the three. They focus on Constitution and Intelligence and are normally Eldritch Knight Fighters, War Mages, Warlords, Bladesingers, and other arcane gish characters (investigation, history, arcana, and other intelligence skill-focused).
That's my take on them, its fairly close to the current 5e's hobgoblins, but I don't play them as the leaders of the goblinoid cast. They're the warlords and battle strategists of the societies, and more often the wizards than the other types of goblinoids. This, combined with their intelligence, does make them more likely to be the leaders of goblinoid settlements, but they don't have to be.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Is this just an issue with people who grew up with the recent Lord of the Rings movies and just are incapable of getting their mind out of that?
No, I grew up with the books and largely stayed there. :)
Like none of the people having an issue here have been around D&D for the last 25 years-- you just went from those Lord of the Rings movies and popped into D&D and expected D&D to be exactly the same and are just functionally incapable of grasping the idea of diversity among the traditional bad guy people?
They can have all the diversity they like when they're living peacefully at home, but when they're in front of my sword because I'm defending my town from them, yeah - they're all the same. Sure, some are bigger or smaller or greener or purpler than others, and some have different combat techniques I need to be aware of, but in the end they're just enemies who I have to deal with before they kill me.
Like none of you ever played, for example, an MMORPG such as EverQuest or World of WarCraft?
Nope, never have.

That said, WoW's influence on the overall appearance of Orcs is undeniable.
How do you point to orange cat-people and green pig-people and insist they are exactly the same thing, but you have no problem with Halflings and Gnomes who are just short humans whose main substantially different trait is that one is usually portrayed as a bit younger and tend to be thieves and one is portrayed as a bit older with beards and usually wizards?
I missed something - did someone present Hobgoblins as orange cat-people? Yikes!

But generalizing Hobgoblins as Lawful regimented warriors (whose skin colour is hard to discenr under all the armour!) and Orcs as a green-skinned swarming horde - it works for me.

Adn I have no problem with pigeonholing creatures to a certain extent. Hobbits in my game work best as Thieves. Gnomes work best as arcane casters (any type). Part-Orcs work best as Fighters.

Sure you can play them as other things, sometimes with great results, but the tendency is that some races and some classes simply fit together better than others; and this is intentional. The flipside is that Humans are generic enough to work well in any class, and that's their advantage.
One wants to argue that when you break it down to just saw enemy mechanics where something has 16 hit points and you hit it with a sword or arrow and it dies and drops loot... yeah, I suppose. But in terms of actual world building, there is a world of difference here. The only real similarity here is that they are two human-sized races that are often seen at level 1 just like all of the PC races and yet get pegged as "just monsters" rather than properly getting developed as the kind of regular denizens of the worlds that one would expect to see in an average party.
Here I kind of agree with you. One challenge I had when running Keep on the Borderlands was in trying to differentiate all the little creature communities in the Caves of Chaos such that each had its own 'vibe', so to speak, when encountered by the party. It was easy with the Hobgoblins, given all the lore I've got behind them, but there's little to distinguish between a community of Gnolls or Orcs or Kobolds or Goblins (all of which exist in that poor little valley) and so they ended up being rather similar. Their only distinction in play was how each community interacted with the Hobgoblins, who the party even had as allies for a while until some PCs pissed them off too much.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
A really important note for me about all Goblinoids is that in my games they are even more social than humans. Hobgoblins can defy their normal limitations because their allies can see them, and that’s because they draw strength and focus from kith and kin.

I also make the Goblinoid race very prone to dependence on eachother, and to form societies that feature strongly structured interdependence..
 
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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
One thing I pondered is adding a weapon group variants to the game.

Hobgoblins use heavy swords and polearms due to the half Roman Half Japanese look. Orcs keep there axes and spears. Evil elves go with light swords and bows/crossbows. Evil dwarves have hammers and axes. And Gnolls use whatever.

However since many editions make the difference of weapons practically unnoticeable on the monster side, a weapon group variants might alleviate the differentiation issues.

Hobgoblins use the heavy sword effect. Orcs the axe effect. Drow the light swords effect. Fight them accordingly.
 

A really important note for me about all Goblinoids is that in my games they are even more social than humans. Hobgoblins can defy their normal limitations because their can see them, and that’s because they draw strength and focus from kith and kin.
That at least explains the Saving Face default racial ability that Hobgoblin PCs get. I feel that ability makes them into a people to typically care about what others think of them.

The default Goblin PC ability Fury of the Small, seems to imply that Goblins have a lot of pent-up rage over being pushed around.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
That at least explains the Saving Face default racial ability that Hobgoblin PCs get. I feel that ability makes them into a people to typically care about what others think of them.

The default Goblin PC ability Fury of the Small, seems to imply that Goblins have a lot of pent-up rage over being pushed around.
I like to think of Fury of The Small as an ability to use their size to their advantage. I imagine goblin hunters flushing out a boar, and one goblin with a spear stand out, challenges the boar, and runs straight at it while it charges, sticks it good and disappears into the trees, then another goblin challenges it, repeat until dead boar.

Obviously my goblins aren’t cowards.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Hobgoblins are the fighting Uruk-hai — an improved, sunlight resistant race of goblins, bred by the Dark Lord to conquer the world.

The iron fist of Maglubiyet. Striking fear into his enemies with their tactical precision and warrior discipline. Quake in fear followers of Grummish or other false gods! I love my Otherworld Hobgoblin minis and try to use them as much as possible.
 

GreenTengu

Adventurer
This is something I wrote for another forum, it might be useful here. I wanted to create more fully rounded and fleshed out versions of the races, so I planned to write about various aspects of their cultures. I got through cuisines and music and intended to do performance art and visual art, but stopped early on due to lack of interest. I did the standard four demihumans (Dwarfs, Elves, Gnomes and Halflings) too, but they aren't really relevant to this topic. But I think this conveys the contrast I see in them.

Cuisine
Goblins

Goblins are hardly ever in a position to be picky eaters about anything, so it would be easy enough to say "Goblins will eat whatever the other races discard or leave unguarded and like it" and that would be true enough. But surely there are still things that get them more excited than others. Given their short lifespan and hyperactivity, I am going to guess that they go absolutely crazy for sweets-- sugar in any of its varieties is probably quite the addictive drug to them. Goblins might even be the experts in the D&D world at making "foods" that are just purely made of sugar-- rock candy, caramel, cotton candy-- as long as it doesn't take much more than heat, water and some experimentation until you get it right, it isn't going to be hard to imagine the Goblins coming up with it. Of course, that is those of the Goblin race who get an opportunity to develop such things.

More commonly, Goblins probably love their hotpots. They might have a dozen names for it, but as long as the basic idea is "scrounge up whatever you can find and we'll just boil it all together in water", that's almost certainly the Goblins' daily cuisine. I can't imagine that Goblins have any special drinks that they produce, often they will be just happy to find clean water.

Hobgoblins
The Hobgoblins seem to primarily make their homes in either mountains or in marshlands or islands. Furthermore, they probably want to make any fields they are going to divert to farming into being effectively defensive structures. So, I think the Hobgoblins are probably going to specialize in rice. Rice is generally grown in a flooded plain, and those flooded plains serve well as moats which prevent enemies from easily coming up on them. Of course, no self-respecting Hobgoblin wants to work any such field themselves and so they usually gather up a bunch of goblin workers or anyone else they can force to work for them into doing that work. Those that live in the mountain probably rely on various kinds of birds, chickens, turkeys, or whatever is available-- while those who live near the sea probably love various kinds of fish and other seafood. Fishing requires a fair bit of skill and so maybe the Hobgoblins wouldn't see that as below their station. I have this idea that Hobgoblins like to heavily salt and/or spice their food for the preservative and anti-bacterial benefits, which probably makes the most extreme of Hobgoblin food almost entirely inedible to other races. It would also be easy to imagine Hobgoblins competing over who could eat the spiciest food without showing any ill effects and so they have gotten used to it. So while Elves also produce spices, the Elves spices are meant to be sweet while the Hobgoblin-produced spices are designed to be as strong as possible. This could also indicate a weakness that Hobgoblins have over their smaller cousins-- while the "lesser" Goblins can just about eat anything without ill effects, the Hobgoblins spice their food because, despite being physically tough, they are far more prone to illness from eating spoiled or bacteria-ridden food.

Those Hobgoblins who live in marshlands or on islands may also grow sugar cane. The sugar can be used to keep the Goblin slaves in line through a carrot-and-stick approach. I also would like to think that perhaps the Hobgoblins produce the rum, particularly spiced rum, in the D&D world. Generally both too sweet and too spicy for more races, the Hobgoblins might love it so much that it is just one more thing to make them never want to leave their society.

Orcs
The Orcs are often depicted as thriving in frozen, tundra environments, taking shelter in caves generally avoiding the sunlight. And, while I think that Orcs probably do have iron guts that can digest just about anything, I have a few ideas based on this. First, I think perhaps that a good reason why Orcs don't produce permanent settlements and fortresses and instead rely on caves and tents is not because they are so intellectually deficient that they are unable to learn how to do so-- they may not be as technologically progressive as Gnomes, but they can certainly do that much-- but rather because Orcs are nomadic. They probably follow around herds of some sort of prey animal such as reindeer. When they kill one, they probably skin it and then eat virtually everything but the antlers and teeth-- meat, innards, brain, even biting open the bones to get at the marrow-- no part of the animal goes to waste because every part contains essential nutrients that Orcs need to survive their sunless, frigid existence. Perhaps Orcs also keep some sort of frost-resistant boars that can help them hunt down edible fungi and moss. Perhaps they are even experts at finding truffles. These boars are probably consumed in their near entirety once they become too old to be useful. I also imagine that Orcs also likely consume their own dead (as well as that of any races they slay) as they absolutely cannot allow anything potentially edible to go to waste-- and while that may be a good way to spread disease, the Orcs are probably far more resistant to disease than humans are.

In addition, I have an idea that perhaps the Orcs milk the reindeer too. They probably drink milk for additional fat and protein, after all their bodies indicate they get plenty of both. They may be the biggest producers of non-cattle cheese and yogurt. Their favorite beverage might even be a milk/yogurt drink, perhaps one even fermented enough to have some alcoholic content like those produced in Mongolia.

Music
Goblins

Goblins prefer simple percussion instruments that do not take too much effort to create nor skill to get a sound out of. Bells and castanets are popular instruments as are make-shift ones which utilize objects designed for other purposes. Everyone plays their instruments together in what may sound like a horrid, chaotic cacophony to anyone else, but to them expresses the vibe of their community. Ideally, rather than any particular individual standing out, everyone should feel brought together and connected by the music. Chanting and hollaring are often done during these tribal musical festivals.

Hobgoblins
Hobgoblins prefer to use large drums and variety of stringed instruments, often those that cannot be carried. Their stringed performances are often solo with perhaps a drummer in accompaniment. They are often high speed and quite difficult to replicate. The Hobgoblin musician takes great pride in being able to perform a often needlessly fast, complicated and intense piece of music designed to get people's blood rushing that no one else can replicate. After all-- they need to prove their mastery of the instrument. Even their slower, moodier songs are not without dramatic flare. The drummers, however, are paradoxically quite the opposite. Often a large number of drummers will get together and play identically, perfectly in synch. Traditionally they would spread the drummers out across legions of troops and they would help everyone keep a marching beat. Although over time they have moved from simplistic beats to more complicated rhythms. Singing is strictly kept out of Hobgoblin music, however they may use music in accompaniment with an epic poem or a stage performance.

Orcs
Orcs create drums and other percussion instruments from the skin and bones of the creatures they kill. Although Orcs can absolutely create horns from the well-- horns of the animals, the large tusks protruding from most Orc's mouths means they tend to shy away from instruments that they would need to use their lips to play. No Orc instrument is identical as they do not have a tradition dictating precise construction of their instruments. Instead, each Orc musician usually creates their own instrument that they use until it breaks or they tire of it and then create a new one utilizing the lessons they learned from the last. Orc music is also quite simplistic-- no concept of tone or melody, only of beat. The Orc musician opens their spirit up to the natural spirits around them, those of the sky, the trees, the mountain and the people and then lets it flow through them to create their song. Chanting and clapping are often done as a major part of the Orcs tribal musical performances, with all but the gruffest and most stalwart members of the tribe joining in.
 
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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Music

Hobgoblins

Hobgoblins prefer to use large drums and variety of stringed instruments, often those that cannot be carried. Their stringed performances are often solo with perhaps a drummer in accompaniment. They are often high speed and quite difficult to replicate. The Hobgoblin musician takes great pride in being able to perform a often needlessly fast, complicated and intense piece of music designed to get people's blood rushing that no one else can replicate. After all-- they need to prove their mastery of the instrument.
So, the members of the band Dragonforce are all Hobgoblins, is what you're saying. 'Cause that's a pretty accurate description of their style... :)
 

MonsterEnvy

Adventurer
I pretty much just use these guys as written.

The Organized Hobgoblins with their sneaky goblin cannonfodder and Bugbear shock troops, have well differentiated themselves from the Orcish hordes.
 

Lidgar

Adventurer
I have a campaign world that has existed since 1e.

In it, hobgoblins have their own empire. They are the ironfisted rulers of a lawful evil hell on earth. They build structures and have engineers and other more advanced technologies.

They are at constant war with their neighbors, ever trying to expand their domain, built upon the backs of slaves.

Hordes of Goblins make up their army, and Bugbears serve as scouts/spies, shock troops, and on rare occasions, leaders as well.

Unlike orcs, they can operate in daylight openly. Orcs are the vicious raiders who live primarily underground or deep in forests.
 

I know Hobgoblins and Orcs have their distinct niches in Eberron, but a few things about Lhesh Haruuc, Darguun's founder reminds me about Robert Mugabe, one of Modern Zimbabwe's founders. Which is consistent with Eberron having a few things inspired by certain 20th century events.
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
If someone is keeping a tally....

In my campaign hobgoblins are just as civilized as any of the traditional PC races. They have a fairly large nation and are best known for the training and efficiency of their armies. They are just as adept at creating and producing high quality weaponry as the dwarves, but tend to do so for their own use rather than for sale to the other nations like dwarves tend to do. They are not evil as a general rule, just warlike and prone to using their armies to get their way on the international stage even when it doesn't come to outright war.

Basically hobgoblins have a version of the military traditions that defined Prussia/Germany combined with the German stereotypes of being matter-of-fact and highly efficient combined with a bit of Roman organization.

Conversely, orcs are less civilized than the traditional PC races in that they still live a nomadic lifestyle on the equivalent of the tundras of my world. Without dedicated cities or settlements, they tend to trade for their weapons and equipment when its something that requires more infrastructure than a portable smithy. They are also know to be warlike, however unlike the hobgoblins they are more likely to engage in quick raids with some quick looting before riding off into the distance. They are also not evil as a general rule, but their looting and pillaging of more civilized neighbors on occasion makes them more of a neighbor you build a fence to keep out rather than one you build an embassy and invite in.

Basically orcs have a Native American lifestyle on the tundra combined with an honor based military tradition similar to that of the Japanese feudal era.

And to give full disclosure to how I treat some of the base PC types....

The dwarves hide in the mountains manufacturing weapons and armor and selling them to the highest bidder. Their power comes from their economy and the fact they are always pushing the boundaries of "tech" (they are responsible for the Warforged among other developments) which they can sell to eveyone else. They are willing to go to war, but usually avoid it unless there is a direct threat OR there would be money to be made on the conflict. Basically they are post WW2 America.

The elves are still trying to find their place in the world after the other races have come into their own power and retaken lands that were previously "claimed" and exploited by the elves as an older inhabitant of the world. They continue to live in their dedicated cities and towns but don't have a strong identity yet other than once having an empire on which the sun never set. Obviously they are generally akin to Great Britain in the era of losing all their colonial conquests and having been reduced back to a "homeland".

Finally the humans are a traditional monarchy allied with a corrupted theocracy of Tempus and engaged in an endless crusade of conquest against anyone in their way. As the average person in the land is growing more and more discontent at their lack of power and the squandering of lives and wealth on needless agression, there is a growing underbelly of revolt stirring which may end up in some sort of revolution where the poor overthrow the monarchy/church and establish some sort of rule-by-the-people. Even more obviously this represents Russia from just before the revolution.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
If someone is keeping a tally....

In my campaign hobgoblins are just as civilized as any of the traditional PC races. They have a fairly large nation and are best known for the training and efficiency of their armies. They are just as adept at creating and producing high quality weaponry as the dwarves, but tend to do so for their own use rather than for sale to the other nations like dwarves tend to do. They are not evil as a general rule, just warlike and prone to using their armies to get their way on the international stage even when it doesn't come to outright war.

Basically hobgoblins have a version of the military traditions that defined Prussia/Germany combined with the German stereotypes of being matter-of-fact and highly efficient combined with a bit of Roman organization.

Conversely, orcs are less civilized than the traditional PC races in that they still live a nomadic lifestyle on the equivalent of the tundras of my world. Without dedicated cities or settlements, they tend to trade for their weapons and equipment when its something that requires more infrastructure than a portable smithy. They are also know to be warlike, however unlike the hobgoblins they are more likely to engage in quick raids with some quick looting before riding off into the distance. They are also not evil as a general rule, but their looting and pillaging of more civilized neighbors on occasion makes them more of a neighbor you build a fence to keep out rather than one you build an embassy and invite in.

Basically orcs have a Native American lifestyle on the tundra combined with an honor based military tradition similar to that of the Japanese feudal era.

And to give full disclosure to how I treat some of the base PC types....

The dwarves hide in the mountains manufacturing weapons and armor and selling them to the highest bidder. Their power comes from their economy and the fact they are always pushing the boundaries of "tech" (they are responsible for the Warforged among other developments) which they can sell to eveyone else. They are willing to go to war, but usually avoid it unless there is a direct threat OR there would be money to be made on the conflict. Basically they are post WW2 America.

The elves are still trying to find their place in the world after the other races have come into their own power and retaken lands that were previously "claimed" and exploited by the elves as an older inhabitant of the world. They continue to live in their dedicated cities and towns but don't have a strong identity yet other than once having an empire on which the sun never set. Obviously they are generally akin to Great Britain in the era of losing all their colonial conquests and having been reduced back to a "homeland".

Finally the humans are a traditional monarchy allied with a corrupted theocracy of Tempus and engaged in an endless crusade of conquest against anyone in their way. As the average person in the land is growing more and more discontent at their lack of power and the squandering of lives and wealth on needless agression, there is a growing underbelly of revolt stirring which may end up in some sort of revolution where the poor overthrow the monarchy/church and establish some sort of rule-by-the-people. Even more obviously this represents Russia from just before the revolution.

One thing I’ve never quite understood in these set ups is if Hobgoblins (or Orcs or etc) are as civilised as humans and have Prussian levels of effeciency and Roman levels of organisation then why do we not see vast Hobgoblin Empires?
The Romans dominated their neighbours - why do we not see Hobgoblins doing the same?

(At least with Orcs they have the day blindness and savage flaws holding them back)
 

One thing I’ve never quite understood in these set ups is if Hobgoblins (or Orcs or etc) are as civilised as humans and have Prussian levels of effeciency and Roman levels of organisation then why do we not see vast Hobgoblin Empires?
The Romans dominated their neighbours - why do we not see Hobgoblins doing the same?

(At least with Orcs they have the day blindness and savage flaws holding them back)
In my world, they do have an "empire" (more of a contingent/faction than a nation, thought). They are just as civilized as humans, but have their own culture and racial traits and traditions.

I can't answer for why the official world designers didn't give them any giant empires, though.
 

My issue with Hobgoblins has always been that they’re are miltaristic society that don't seem to have a point of origin. Where is the Hobgoblin empire? None of the published settings have one. I could put one in my campaign setting if I wanted but there doesn't seem much point. I don't like the idea of a great big all evil society, but there's already enough player character races that more aren't really needed (and when I do add more, hobgoblins don't really seem like a particular high priority or particularly appealing to players.). And if I wanted a miliatristic empire it would seem more interesting to use one of the player character races to show some diversity among cultures in those races (Dwarves, in particular, are good for this kind of niche - the Charduni from the Scarred Lands setting were always pretty cool.).

So if were to use them they would tend to be from some kind of otherworld or extra-planar mercenaries - I can't remember the last time I actually used them - although I have reskinned hobgoblins as human soldiers reasonably frequently.
 
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billd91

Hobbit on Quest
One thing I’ve never quite understood in these set ups is if Hobgoblins (or Orcs or etc) are as civilised as humans and have Prussian levels of effeciency and Roman levels of organisation then why do we not see vast Hobgoblin Empires?
The Romans dominated their neighbours - why do we not see Hobgoblins doing the same?

(At least with Orcs they have the day blindness and savage flaws holding them back)
Greyhawk's Horned Society had a substantial population of hobgoblins (about 20% of the population, which is huge for Greyhawk's typical human basis). It wasn't a hobgoblin state, per se, but they clearly would have been a substantial element of their military.
 

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