D&D General On the subject of Hobgoblins

[Minigiant]

Actually, WarHammer has Hobgoblins too-- but they are barely ever mentioned or used. They attempted to utilize them in WarHammer Fantasy during the 1990s, but the market just couldn't support that many armies in the model game.

But the Hobgoblins there are between the size of goblins and orcs, basically just exactly human-sized with almost exactly human stats, but are obsessed with constantly betraying each other. They do seem to be marginally more technologically advanced than either the Orcs or Goblins though as they can make proper swords and proper armor and such. And they have the ability to actually shoot at things and hit them. Or maybe they just have an easier time looting such things as human-sized stuff fits them perfectly. Though even knowing to bother to loot such things indicates a higher intellect than either of their cousins.

Yes, WH Hobgoblins. The 5th type of greenskins after orcs, goblins, snotlings, and gnoblars.

And it kinda proves my point. WH Hobgoblins work for the Chaos Dwarves and the gnoblar are in the Ogre army. You really lose a sense of individuality when you combine humaniod enemies outside of a wargame. And WHFB and AOS are wargames and still don't do it. WH Hobgoblins work because they are paired with the slow as dirt, tough as steel, expensive as hell, chaos dwarves.

A DM is not running 30 enemies in anything but 4e that would make hobgoblins feel different. Ironically that lower number stifles their inidividuality as many DMs aren'trunning PCs as enemies frequently enough to display those differences.

 

[GreenTengu]

Yes, WH Hobgoblins. The 5th type of greenskins after orcs, goblins, snotlings, and gnoblars.

And it kinda proves my point. WH Hobgoblins work for the Chaos Dwarves and the gnoblar are in the Ogre army. You really lose a sense of individuality when you combine humaniod enemies outside of a wargame. And WHFB and AOS are wargames and still don't do it. WH Hobgoblins work because they are paired with the slow as dirt, tough as steel, expensive as hell, chaos dwarves.

A DM is not running 30 enemies in anything but 4e that would make hobgoblins feel different. Ironically that lower number stifles their inidividuality as many DMs aren'trunning PCs as enemies frequently enough to display those differences.

Well, there are Hobgoblin models from GW well before they were paired with the Chaos Dwarfs and the last couple things made for them were actually put into the mercenary faction Dogs of War.

But-- really-- given that there are just so many flavors of elves and it seems that no designer in charge of any fantasy setting can ever seem to get enough flavors of them, I don't see how anyone can claim that Orcs and Hobgoblins are not distinct enough.

 

[Minigiant]

Well, there are Hobgoblin models from GW well before they were paired with the Chaos Dwarfs and the last couple things made for them were actually put into the mercenary faction Dogs of War.

But-- really-- given that there are just so many flavors of elves and it seems that no designer in charge of any fantasy setting can ever seem to get enough flavors of them, I don't see how anyone can claim that Orcs and Hobgoblins are not distinct enough.

Because in D&D we talk to elves.

PCs mostly just fight Orcs or Hobgoblins. You can make all kindsof interesting lore for them but 90% of the interactions with them is combat. So the closer you make them in lore, the less distinct they are as they are just walking statblock already. They don't have natural magic or weird special abilities in D&D.

Without the special roles of wargaming, it is easy for a low CR orc and a low CR hobgoblin to feel the same if you mix them, ally them, or put them in close proximity.

How different are high, wood, and wold elves when you fight them if you don't add a classed enemy in every combat?

 

[GreenTengu]

Because in D&D we talk to elves.

PCs mostly just fight Orcs or Hobgoblins. You can make all kindsof interesting lore for them but 90% of the interactions with them is combat. So the closer you make them in lore, the less distinct they are as they are just walking statblock already. They don't have natural magic or weird special abilities in D&D.

Without the special roles of wargaming, it is easy for a low CR orc and a low CR hobgoblin to feel the same if you mix them, ally them, or put them in close proximity.

How different are high, wood, and wold elves when you fight them if you don't add a classed enemy in every combat?

Well, I suspect that in the future of the game, players are going to be spending at least as much time talking to them as fighting them. Which is probably why there has been an increasing amount of distinction between them starting even from 3rd edition.

Sure-- if one goes back to 1st edition, there really isn't much of a difference-- everything was a bag of HP that appears when you open a dungeon door and drops treasure when you pop it. But for the last two decades, it is difficult for me to think anyone has had trouble keeping Orcs and Hobgoblins straight within Dungeons and Dragons.

Of course-- there is pathfinder that seems regressive on the issue and made them both just gray skinned humanoids of roughly the same height and build and general demeanor. But we aren't talking about Pathfinder here.

At this point is is like saying "Samurai and Vikings are both human warriors cultures who don't use magic, so I don't see how anyone could remotely tell the difference."

 

[Minigiant]

Well, I suspect that in the future of the game, players are going to be spending at least as much time talking to them as fighting them. Which is probably why there has been an increasing amount of distinction between them starting even from 3rd edition.

Sure-- if one goes back to 1st edition, there really isn't much of a difference-- everything was a bag of HP that appears when you open a dungeon door and drops treasure when you pop it. But for the last two decades, it is difficult for me to think anyone has had trouble keeping Orcs and Hobgoblins straight within Dungeons and Dragons.

Of course-- there is pathfinder that seems regressive on the issue and made them both just gray skinned humanoids of roughly the same height and build and general demeanor. But we aren't talking about Pathfinder here.

At this point is is like saying "Samurai and Vikings are both human warriors cultures who don't use magic, so I don't see how anyone could remotely tell the difference."

Well Vikings, Knights,and Samurai are the same if you don't talk to them nor engage them in skill checks. Their colors, style,and fashion of their skin, weapons,and armor have no effects on the game. And for most editions, the base rules don't allow for cultural tactical differences either in their base models.

So if you LOTRized Hobgoblins, they and the other humaniod enemies start to blend together.

 

[Oofta]

In my world, hobgoblins along with bugbears, goblins, gnomes, elves and so on originated from the feywild. Orcs and giants are from Jotunheim, land of the giants and fiends.

While some people think of the unseelie court as evil and chaotic, it isn't that simple. True fey are just different, with motivations and logic that doesn't always make sense to mortals, hence we think of them as chaotic or even evil. But, in the feywild goblins are not particularly inclined to be evil even though they do tend to hold lower positions in the courts.

When the long forgotten ancestors of goblinoids came to the mortal realm they changed as well, over a period of time roughly sorting themselves into the forms we know now as they shed their traditional roles. Vowing to never again be a lower cast, hobgoblins focused on military might and discipline focusing on conquest and subjugation over any concepts of mercy or compassion. Hobgoblins are the superior race and subjugation of lesser races is their ultimate goal.

Goblins found themselves once still being cast out and unwanted which blackened their hearts. Their laziness is not a result of inherent nature (and they can be quite industrious and ingenious if given a chance) but rather because in many cases they have simply given up trying to better their lives.

Orcs on the other hand are descended from giants and are always striving to prove themselves once more as the rightful rulers of the land. But they're not organized, believing that their might alone will win the day. So rather than coming up with long term plans and focusing on military might they seek to overwhelm all enemies with their inherent ferocity and numbers. There's no need to plan when you know you are stronger than your weakling foes.

Hobgoblins and orcs rarely mix, or if they do conflict inevitably results. For the most part a region will have either hobgoblins or orcs, although lowly goblins are sometimes enslaved by orcs.

 

[Charlaquin]

While some people think of the unseelie court as evil and chaotic, it isn't that simple. True fey are just different, with motivations and logic that doesn't always make sense to mortals, hence we think of them as chaotic or even evil.

Evil? Not necessarily, though they may seem that way from a mortal perspective. Chaotic? Undoubtedly. Maybe there is a bizarre otherworldly logic behind what they do, but if so, the effect is still indistinguishable from chaos from a mortal perspective.

Now, seelie fae may be a different story. They clearly operate by a set of immutable laws. Their laws may be difficult for mortals to understand, but if so it’s because they are so complex and byzantine, not because they operate by a completely different form of logic like the unseelie do. Seelie laws still function according to intelligible principles like cause and effect. They are bound by promises and agreements. They have obscure rules which may seem strange (step in the wrong spot, eat the wrong food, say the wrong words, and you can find yourself transgressing some arcane law you had never known existed). But the fundamental structure is familiar in a way the unseelie’s seemingly random behavior is not.

 

[GreenTengu]

Well Vikings, Knights,and Samurai are the same if you don't talk to them nor engage them in skill checks. Their colors, style,and fashion of their skin, weapons,and armor have no effects on the game. And for most editions, the base rules don't allow for cultural tactical differences either in their base models.

So if you LOTRized Hobgoblins, they and the other humaniod enemies start to blend together.

I suppose, but then that's just one more reason to move them ever further into the "just additional PC races" category. There are plenty of more monstrous things to be the proper monsters, some of which have already been moved into the "just another PC race" category like Draconians or Golems or Demonkin.

No one really asks "If a Dwarf or Halflings are wizards, do they become Gnomes?" or "If a Dwarf or a Gnome is a rogue, do they become Halflings?" or "If a Gnome or Halfling is a fighter, do they become a Dwarf?"

We can have three different versions of "short humans who tend to be class X" without mixing them up.

 

[Tonguez]

At this point is is like saying "Samurai and Vikings are both human warriors cultures who don't use magic, so I don't see how anyone could remotely tell the difference."

I think thats rather the whole point of OPs statement that Hobgoblins are just more organised Orcs, 95% of the responses have been to discuss how their version of the Culture of Orcs is different to the Culture of Hobgoblins but very little had been discussed about how the Hobgoblin as a species is functionally different to an Orc.
Goblins are small, weak and sneaky, butin a game were race is being decoupled from Culture what is the point of having two identical species that are stronger than goblins but smaller than Bugbears?

 

[Cadence]

Goblins are small, weak and sneaky, butin a game were race is being decoupled from Culture what is the point of having two identical species that are stronger than goblins but smaller than Bugbears?

In Tolkien, they'd be different names for the same thing, right?

In D&D, being goblinoid, and not of the human-orc-ogre-giant continuum seems a difference.

Within goblinoids it fills the gab between the goblin and bugbear size-wise.

If species isn't coupled tightly with culture in the MM, it doesn't mean they won't likely fill different niches in different worlds.

Why have separate gnomes, dwarves, and halflings all filling the smaller than human side? Why separate Ogre, Troll, and Bugbear? Why separate Chimerea, Griffons, Hippogriffs, and Wyverns and the other mish-mash flying creatures from each other?