D&D General On the subject of Hobgoblins

[Hriston]

Is this just an issue with people who grew up with the recent Lord of the Rings movies and just are incapable of getting their mind out of that?
Like none of the people having an issue here have been around D&D for the last 25 years-- you just went from those Lord of the Rings movies and popped into D&D and expected D&D to be exactly the same and are just functionally incapable of grasping the idea of diversity among the traditional bad guy people?

Like none of you ever played, for example, an MMORPG such as EverQuest or World of WarCraft?

If one were to rewind way back, 30 years ago, to AD&D-- then, sure, there was hardly any difference between them.

But the moment WotC took over, from 3.0 onward-- there was a very clear artistic direction. Hobgoblins are warm-skinned (yellow to red) and have sort of a cat-like look, but not enough to be full on furries-esque cat-people like Tabaxi are. Meanwhile Orcs were cool-skinned (green to blue) pig-like people, but again-- not like full on Mrs. Piggy, just slightly pig-like influence. Hobgoblins had proper full on smithed armor while Orcs wore hide and chain. More was expanded on the Orcs so that we knew they lived on the colder regions, high in the mountains or deep in the caverns. That they bred with not only humans, but also Ogres... meanwhile edition on edition, it was advanced that the Hobgoblins were civilized empire-builders.

So we have these mildly pig-people barbarians who are smaller ogres and yet here we have a few people continually insisting that they are "big goblins". That hasn't been the case for 25 years of Dungeons and Dragons. There is virtually no crossover between goblins and orcs at all.

How do you point to orange cat-people and green pig-people and insist they are exactly the same thing, but you have no problem with Halflings and Gnomes who are just short humans whose main substantially different trait is that one is usually portrayed as a bit younger and tend to be thieves and one is portrayed as a bit older with beards and usually wizards?

One wants to argue that when you break it down to just saw enemy mechanics where something has 16 hit points and you hit it with a sword or arrow and it dies and drops loot... yeah, I suppose. But in terms of actual world building, there is a world of difference here. The only real similarity here is that they are two human-sized races that are often seen at level 1 just like all of the PC races and yet get pegged as "just monsters" rather than properly getting developed as the kind of regular denizens of the worlds that one would expect to see in an average party.

But there has, at least on the narrative side, been considerable development of them over the past 25 years of D&D. And that seems to be the one hang-up here-- that you can't get over Lord of the Rings and insist that D&D perfectly emulate Lord of the Rings and not have a single additional element beyond the limited scope seen in those movies.

I’m not sure if your post is in response to mine, but what issue are you talking about?

 

[billd91]

Of course-- there is pathfinder that seems regressive on the issue and made them both just gray skinned humanoids of roughly the same height and build and general demeanor. But we aren't talking about Pathfinder here.

That’s kind of a weird take on it since PF makes their demeanor pretty different.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

I typically have hobgoblins be martial goblinoids, having fighters, arcane-gish characters, and other martial characters in their society. They are disciplined and patient, but have no better manners than goblins or bugbears. They're just more lawful, like the romans.

I always run the three main types of goblinoids as different sides of a coin (a 3 sided coin, I guess). They're all evil, conniving, ill-mannered, and somewhat related, but have a few things that distinctively separate them.

1. Goblins are neutral evil, the smallest of the 3, and focus on Dexterity and Charisma more and are typically rogues and fighters (stealth, stealing, sleight of hands, deception, etc).
2. Bugbears are chaotic evil, the largest and most brutish of the 3 goblinoids, and focus on Strength and Wisdom, most often being Barbarians, Champion Fighters, and Rangers (hunters, trackers, ambushers).
3. Hobgoblins are lawful evil, the medium sized goblinoids, and are the more strategical-minded of the three. They focus on Constitution and Intelligence and are normally Eldritch Knight Fighters, War Mages, Warlords, Bladesingers, and other arcane gish characters (investigation, history, arcana, and other intelligence skill-focused).

That's my take on them, its fairly close to the current 5e's hobgoblins, but I don't play them as the leaders of the goblinoid cast. They're the warlords and battle strategists of the societies, and more often the wizards than the other types of goblinoids. This, combined with their intelligence, does make them more likely to be the leaders of goblinoid settlements, but they don't have to be.

 

[Lanefan]

Is this just an issue with people who grew up with the recent Lord of the Rings movies and just are incapable of getting their mind out of that?

No, I grew up with the books and largely stayed there.

Like none of the people having an issue here have been around D&D for the last 25 years-- you just went from those Lord of the Rings movies and popped into D&D and expected D&D to be exactly the same and are just functionally incapable of grasping the idea of diversity among the traditional bad guy people?

They can have all the diversity they like when they're living peacefully at home, but when they're in front of my sword because I'm defending my town from them, yeah - they're all the same. Sure, some are bigger or smaller or greener or purpler than others, and some have different combat techniques I need to be aware of, but in the end they're just enemies who I have to deal with before they kill me.

Like none of you ever played, for example, an MMORPG such as EverQuest or World of WarCraft?

Nope, never have.

That said, WoW's influence on the overall appearance of Orcs is undeniable.

How do you point to orange cat-people and green pig-people and insist they are exactly the same thing, but you have no problem with Halflings and Gnomes who are just short humans whose main substantially different trait is that one is usually portrayed as a bit younger and tend to be thieves and one is portrayed as a bit older with beards and usually wizards?

I missed something - did someone present Hobgoblins as orange cat-people? Yikes!

But generalizing Hobgoblins as Lawful regimented warriors (whose skin colour is hard to discenr under all the armour!) and Orcs as a green-skinned swarming horde - it works for me.

Adn I have no problem with pigeonholing creatures to a certain extent. Hobbits in my game work best as Thieves. Gnomes work best as arcane casters (any type). Part-Orcs work best as Fighters.

Sure you can play them as other things, sometimes with great results, but the tendency is that some races and some classes simply fit together better than others; and this is intentional. The flipside is that Humans are generic enough to work well in any class, and that's their advantage.

One wants to argue that when you break it down to just saw enemy mechanics where something has 16 hit points and you hit it with a sword or arrow and it dies and drops loot... yeah, I suppose. But in terms of actual world building, there is a world of difference here. The only real similarity here is that they are two human-sized races that are often seen at level 1 just like all of the PC races and yet get pegged as "just monsters" rather than properly getting developed as the kind of regular denizens of the worlds that one would expect to see in an average party.

Here I kind of agree with you. One challenge I had when running Keep on the Borderlands was in trying to differentiate all the little creature communities in the Caves of Chaos such that each had its own 'vibe', so to speak, when encountered by the party. It was easy with the Hobgoblins, given all the lore I've got behind them, but there's little to distinguish between a community of Gnolls or Orcs or Kobolds or Goblins (all of which exist in that poor little valley) and so they ended up being rather similar. Their only distinction in play was how each community interacted with the Hobgoblins, who the party even had as allies for a while until some PCs pissed them off too much.

 

[Lanefan]

What I've started doing is to honestly take the Bugbear out of the goblinoid races, and make goblins and Hobgoblins much closer.

I've always seen Goblin-Hobgoblin as very much analagous to Hobbit-Human - one's just more or less a smaller version of the other.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

A really important note for me about all Goblinoids is that in my games they are even more social than humans. Hobgoblins can defy their normal limitations because their allies can see them, and that’s because they draw strength and focus from kith and kin.

I also make the Goblinoid race very prone to dependence on eachother, and to form societies that feature strongly structured interdependence..

 

[Minigiant]

One thing I pondered is adding a weapon group variants to the game.

Hobgoblins use heavy swords and polearms due to the half Roman Half Japanese look. Orcs keep there axes and spears. Evil elves go with light swords and bows/crossbows. Evil dwarves have hammers and axes. And Gnolls use whatever.

However since many editions make the difference of weapons practically unnoticeable on the monster side, a weapon group variants might alleviate the differentiation issues.

Hobgoblins use the heavy sword effect. Orcs the axe effect. Drow the light swords effect. Fight them accordingly.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

A really important note for me about all Goblinoids is that in my games they are even more social than humans. Hobgoblins can defy their normal limitations because their can see them, and that’s because they draw strength and focus from kith and kin.

That at least explains the Saving Face default racial ability that Hobgoblin PCs get. I feel that ability makes them into a people to typically care about what others think of them.

The default Goblin PC ability Fury of the Small, seems to imply that Goblins have a lot of pent-up rage over being pushed around.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That at least explains the Saving Face default racial ability that Hobgoblin PCs get. I feel that ability makes them into a people to typically care about what others think of them.

The default Goblin PC ability Fury of the Small, seems to imply that Goblins have a lot of pent-up rage over being pushed around.

I like to think of Fury of The Small as an ability to use their size to their advantage. I imagine goblin hunters flushing out a boar, and one goblin with a spear stand out, challenges the boar, and runs straight at it while it charges, sticks it good and disappears into the trees, then another goblin challenges it, repeat until dead boar.

Obviously my goblins aren’t cowards.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Hobgoblins are the fighting Uruk-hai — an improved, sunlight resistant race of goblins, bred by the Dark Lord to conquer the world.

The iron fist of Maglubiyet. Striking fear into his enemies with their tactical precision and warrior discipline. Quake in fear followers of Grummish or other false gods! I love my Otherworld Hobgoblin minis and try to use them as much as possible.