[On topic - NO FLAMES!] God & Satan

[Lothaire]

Upon a reading of the Old Testament and the New Testament you can see a quite noticeable difference in the actions of Jehovah. Some religious denominations attribute this to the God of the old testament essentially being a high ranking member of the angelic host, perhaps the Metron, the voice of God. They argue that some of the actions attributed to God in the Old Testament are barbaric and could not have been done by him.

But getting away from all these tangents and focusing back on D&D. We have several different theological views to consider, and we have to decide which you feel will make for the best game.

There is the Satan is part of Gods plan for testing man. In this scheme Satan can either be a willing, loyal member of Gods court, or a rebellious fallen angel.

Now you can give him the ability to grant divine spells, putting him (roughly) on par with God. Or just make arcane spells flow from him (thus, for the most part preventing Good charecters from playing Arcane casters). Of you can have both Divine and Arcane magic availible to both sides, but banning spells with opposing alignment descriptors, for example banning spells with the Good descriptor from evil casters.

You might want to take a look at the Relics and Rituals, ritual casting system and make that availible to evil spell-casters. It works very nicely with the medieval perception that wicked Satanists were hiding in the woodwork looking to kidnap good Christians and sacrifice them in wicked rituals to their Dammned master to gain quick power.

Now is Satan a lesser god, or merely an extremely powerful demon / fallen angel. I would say it doesn't matter. Your players don't have to know which way you have gone. And they can ponder these theological quandries in charecter. And if that evil cultists appears to cast a spell, so what then. Either he did and Satan has the power to grant spells, or it is a very elaborate deception, and Lucifer is after all the father of lies.

 

[Orclicker]

I think that if you are to proceed with this you should tread very carefully as you will most likely insult a great many people. To acomplish this you would have to take many things into consideration but please try to stick as close as possible to historical facts and biblical truths. That being said, if you manage to pull it off it would be probably be an interesting campaign.

Okay as for power levels between God and Satan. God is all powerful and can do whatever he wants (hene he is God), Satan can not, and although is powerful by our standards he is no more powerful than anyother archangel. Satan does not get his abilities form his raw power but from his ability to deceive people (which stems from their willingness to be deceived). There are many lines in the bible that talk about why people sin, and how the heart of man is corrupt. This is where satans power comes from.

As long as you consider that you will understand that God himself would have access to all domains (although he would usually only grant good aligned domains to his followers), and satan wouldn't really have any domains to grant but since that doesn't work in game terms he should have three that work on the basis of evil, deception, and destruction.

One last plea, although you are trying to create an interesting game please remember that you are basing it on the religion of millions of people (including myself).

 

[MadTinkerer]

"These things are more evil than "ordinary" sin (lying, adultery, murder, idol worship) and it is very rare for those who perform such acts to repent."

The orthodox view is that all sins be it 'mere' indifference or be it murder are from the prespective of God equally heinous. White lies or no less sinful that any lie. One of the difference is in, as you say, the likelihood that the sinner will repent. This relates largely to the motivation for the sin (someone that thought they had a good motive is more likely to repent than someone who deliberately acted evilly), but all relates to the degree by which the particular sin damages the soul of the person performing it.

There is indication in the Bible that while God hates all sin, some sins provoke him more than others. For example, child molesters make God a LOT more angry than those who have affairs with the neighbor's wife(the quote goes something like "If anyone causes one of these little ones to stumble, it is better that he had a millstone around his neck and that he was thrown into the sea."). That is what I meant by some sins being more evil than others, in addition to those who sin worse being less likely to repent. Generally, those who sin worse have a worse time in life (being hounded by "The Law" or disease or circumstance) and/or a worse time in the afterlife, though scripture is deliberately vague on exactly how it is worse for them in the afterlife.

"Contrary to common knowledge, the knowledge of how to perform such acts is not considered evil (Daniel was trained as an Astrologer), only actually performing them."

I'm not actually even willing to go that far. I think that this is one of those questions that relates to the extent of your own understanding (see Romans chapter 2-6), in that if you know that God has forbid the practice of Sorcery (without getting into to specifically what was forbid which is a whole other question) then certainly practicing it is evil. But (based on the above scripture) I wouldn't want to go as far as (say) the Jesuits (again, I pick on the Catholics because I have something in common with them) and claim that all religious worship or practices of magic not ordained by 'the church' (whatever that means to you) is by necessity Satan worship and power granted through these means by necessity comes from Satan. So (getting back onto topic) it is not necessary I think in this (quite innaccurate and hopefully light hearted model) to insist that all non-Christian spell casters are Satan worshippers.

It's like this: if you worship a god or anything other than The God, it violates the first commandment. Consulting or communicating with demons as if they were equals or superiors breaks this commandment. According to the Bible (I'm not preaching, mind you, I'm just relating what it says), all gods that men worship are demons(if they have power) or simply lies. Deliberately worshiping Satan and/or casting spells in the knowledge that God is against such things is worse than worshipping "the spirits" in ignorance.

On the other hand, knowing "spells", researching philosophy and alchemy, reading about the constellations and what people believe about them is not necessarily harmful. According to the Bible, believing in them is. Talking to someone's grave to console yourself(understanding that the person cannot actually hear you) is not evil, but consulting with someone who claims to be able to communicate with the spirits of the dead is(The Biblical definition of a Necromancer is someone like John Edwards). It's like carnal knowledge: understanding about how the birds and the bees function is entirely different from fantasizing about naked members of the opposite sex all day. I'm just saying that knowing about evil is not evil in itself. That's what I meant when I wrote that sentence.

Certainly some are (its kinda hard to argue otherwise for say Aztec priests and Baal and Asteroth worship), but by no means do I think that the Magi from the East who venerated the Christ were not followers of a non-Judeao-Christian tradiation and practicioners of (as they say it and for all I know) magic.

Exactly what they did, where they lived and who they were is vague, but it is certain that they were extremely educated people who were astronomers certainly and astrologers possibly. Astrology, when not used in the divination sense, is no more harmful than learning about mythology. Horoscopes, on the other hand, are considered to be lies at best and equivalent to idol worship if taken seriously.

[

Now I do not dispute that God has this domain. He's God, he has them all (yes even evil. He's all powerful, but he chooses not to use all of his power).

Technically, the Bible says that Evil is contrary to God's nature. He is all powerful, but he cannot sin because it would be against his nature.

Think of it this way: physics has proven that although time travel is possible, "paradoxes" are impossible. A man cannot go back in time and kill his father before he is conceived because he just can't. In Back to the Future, the universe was at stake, but the truth is that the scenario just can't happen.

[

But I don't think he would grant spells from this domain. After all, it was eating from the Tree of Knowledge that got Adam and Eve expelled from the Garden and endowed us all with original sin.

So if God sees eating from the Tree as a sin worthy of expulsion, wouldn't that indicate that he didn't want man to have knowledge, and thus not grant spells from this domain, just as he wouldn't grant spells from the Destruction or Evil domains, even though he clearly has access to them?

Alan

The reason I included Knowledge domain has more to do with the granted visions in the Bible and praying to God. The effects of the spells from the Knowledge domain seem to simulate a lot of miracles and visions.

Oh and while I am at it, I wanted to take issue with a previous statement about there generally being only 1 prophet at a time. This is not actually true. At certain times there were some prophets more prominant than others but there were generally more than 1 prophet active.

Yes, but there were also long stretches of time when there were no prophets or only one. When there were several prophets at a time, they tended to be less "powerful" in the sense of prominence: when there's only one guy slinging miracles and curses from the guy who created you, he tends to stick out more. Hence the "major" and the "minor" prophets.

 

[jgbrowning]

god and satan

not to sound blasae about this but....

1. no matter what you do you'll offend someone so do what you want.

2. do what you want because the textual nature of christianity allows for almost unlimited interpretation of events.

3. most importantly try to make it interesting. in the real world there are no alignment systems. organizations are both good and evil at the same time. doing good acts often have evil concequences and vice versa so i'd just recomend a NO ALIGNMENT system. that way you wont have to mess with all that muck.

4. and remember is should be FUN to play in.

good luck

joe b.

 

[Wicht]

Yes, but there were also long stretches of time when there were no prophets or only one. When there were several prophets at a time, they tended to be less "powerful" in the sense of prominence: when there's only one guy slinging miracles and curses from the guy who created you, he tends to stick out more. Hence the "major" and the "minor" prophets.

I agree there are stretches with no prophets but I challenge you to find a prophet who had no other prophets working at the same time. (Elijah at one point might be the exception to the rule). There were also many prophets who do not seem to have done any great miracles and then some who are recorded to do miracle after miracle (Moses, Elijah and Elisha, and Jesus are the biggest miracle workers). But I would need to be convinced that prominence had everything to do with miraculous abilities as John the Baptist was a very 'prominent' prophet who performed absolutely no miracles.

And the term major and minor prophets refers not to their prominence in the public eye, but to the length of their books.

The major prophets, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel all have much longer books than the minor prophets but this does not tell us necessarily how often they spoke nor how much more prominent they were socially and politically. Jonah for instance has a relatively short book, but we know he had other prophecies not recorded in that book. Nathan likewise was a prominent prophet with strong political ties but he has no book of his own. And Ezekiel and Daniel are both major prophets and both are from the same time frame (though they did operate in different circles - Daniel in the courts and Ezekiel amongst the exiles)

 

[I'm A Banana]

What I'd Do...

As the runner of the deity-a-week thread and a huge religion nerd, I feel slightly qualified to tell you what I'd do.

First of all...do you want it to be vague? This is a bit more realistic, where people have to more or less take the existence of these forces and creatures on faith, as it can't be proven beyond the shadow of human doubt...you have to believe.

If you were to do this, I'd have God be basically unreachable. He wouldn't grant domains. What *would* grant domains are the philosophies and beliefs of the individual clerics.

This works very well, actually, with each cleric choosing what domains they will use. Some may see God as the giver of knowledge and light (with the Knowledge and Sun domains), others of strength and victory in battle (with Strength and War domains), etc. Still others may say he works in mysterious ways and cannot be defined by the logic of man (with Trickery and Chaos), or that he made the rules, and looks upon those who can use the rules to help themselves with favor (Law and Trickery). The "clerics of Satan" can perhaps choose Death and Evil and the like, and believe that they have power over these forces.

The idea that the Satan-worshippers see themselves as getting power and that the God-worshippers see the power as being given to them is a key difference.

I'd also allow the different clerics to devide themselves culturally, racially, denominationally, etc. A cleric of Allah who takes Strength and War may not be mechanically different from a cleric of Yahweh who takes Strength and War, but they would probably be opposed despite their similarities.

If you want a more rules-friendly version, I'd say the following:

* Look to the description of Taiia in Deities and Demigods for a monotheistic deity. She's got destroyer and lifegiver aspects, so she'd probably be apt for a forgiving but wrathful god. Change the name, and boo-yah.
* Satan and the other angels are Divine Rank 0. Satan's probably quite advanced, maybe started as a Solar, with eventual levels in Rogue, Illusionist, etc. The other angels (and maybe saints, too) are Divine Rank 0 and servants of the gods. Another good place to look may be Deities and Demigods' Proxy template, to show how even weak lil' solars can be quite potent.
* Usually, Divine Rank 0 creatures can't grant spells. However, take a look at my deity-a-week thread for the implementation of "sacrifices." (look in Juiblex, specifically). Basically, the concept is that you do something for the spirit, and they grant you a domain for a while. For evil beings like Satan this could include temptaion, decieving, etc., while for angelic beings this could include preaching, winning converts, healing the sick, etc. This would make angels and The Devil less potent than God, but still able to grant spells, because we want them to. The sacrifice should, of course, be related to the domain...killing a blasphemer may count as a sacrifice for War (and those blasphemers could include people defiling the Holy Land by their very presence), while healing an ill child could be a sacrifice for Healing, and also one for Good.

Hope that helps. Really, I'd suggest doing it in the first way as vague and determined mostly by what the individual cleric thinks and does, maybe implementing the DR0 sacrifice rules for satan-worshipers. The vague way means that you don't really have to deal with the specifics of which salient divine abilities the Omnipotent Creator of All has, while still being able to create differences and divisions based on what people believe (based on cultural tendancies and choice of domains).

 

[Malin Genie]

Zoroastrian?

The idea of an opposed and comparable dyad seems to me more Zoroastrian than Judaeo-Christian. Certainly Zoroastrianism could more easily be used for the basis of the kind of division of clerical power that you were talking about than Christianity could be.

While I can't speak with great knowledge of Christian tradition (although I'm learning a fiar bit just reading this thread!) the idea of Satan as a 'tempter of mankind,' a creature who attempts to persuade humans to follow their ignoble impulses - whether the temptation is power, money, pleasure... - is my current understanding. He does not grant any power directly, but if there is a shortcut to power which involves repudiating the Deity, or even taking unto oneself power which should only be invoked in the service of the Deity (IIRC the reason sorcery/witchcraft is considered wrong?) then he will actively be tempting mortals to take up with it.

In a JCT (judaeo-christian tradition) based game, I would probably have arcane magic as an affront to the Deity, and those who use it (just like those who steal, or murder, or adulter) considered to be falling in with Satan's plans.

 

[Blacksad]

My longest post!

I'm working on a Crusades-era setting, and of course Christianity and diabolism come into play, so I'm trying to figure out what are Christian domains, and what are Satanic domains.

So I'll pose the question, how do you think the power levels of God and Satan measure up to each other?

An interesting twist on the subject, from the comics Arkel, is that God used to encompass all aspect of the universe.

It caused him problem, for whatever he created, he seeked to destroy it.

So he separated himself into two being: one good, and one evil, and fighted against himself to determine what aspect will rule over the universe, that when he cheated, cutting the right hand of the evil side, ensuring that he (it? she?) only will be able to create, he then put the evil side dormant into lucifer body.

This twist, only know to the most aged angel.

Anyway, usind De&De you could describe Satan with a DR16-20 and God with a DR21+, the missing salient abilities being those that allow to create. It would also explain why cleric can gain access to many domains.

I think Satan has a high DR from what most Divinity are able to do in the olympian pantheon, while still having a high DR (Zeus isn't a creator, he still has a DR19).

Also, when you build Satan, if you use European folklore, which has many stories where Satan is directly involved, give him some weakness, like no skill rank in sense motive (but still a high modifier due to a high charisma), he is sometimes tricked by others (though not as much as he tricks mortals).

So basicaly the exclusive domains would be good and repose for God, and evil and death for Satan.

On folklore, if you play in early crusade era, the inquisition hasn't even began, so the whole arcane magic=evil isn't well impregnated. By the way, I don't think it is relative to magic per se, but more with research (what magic is about, doing things that you can't do normaly), in early crusade era I would consider that character doesn't risk to be burned, though depending on the research (necromancy, etc..), character might infringe upon common taboo and being hanged for it.

Also, remeber that the Christian religion, didn't impregnated itself well everywhere, especially considering that in Brittany there is a nice procession every year that follow an old pagan road, with many magic stones (to get pregnant, etc...), sanctioned by the church (Local Heads of the church do it every 6 years). There is many thing like this in Europe (and have you seen how close holydays are to equinoxes and solstices), and legend on goblins and fey have been caried up to those day (think Arthurian Legend).

Many of the old gods have been translated into saint, the mother goddess for exemple has been translated into Anna the mother of Maria.

So the idea of having servant of some Saint getting access to domain perfectly fit the christianity, you could use a method like the one in the Iron Kingdom, you choose one domain among those of your god, and a second domain among those of your saint, considering that most temple are dedicated to a particular saint, you could have specific spell for some temple.

You could give them some DR, De&De advice on Devils & Demons Lord in a monotheist pantheon is to put them under DR 5, you could do the same for some archangel and saints.

That was assuming you wished to use the standard spell system, if you are more into something subtle, I advise on using the best subtle magic system: Four Color to Fantasy, No kidding, it could work!

Using those templates:

Good Servant
Like the Blaster, the Good Servant is sort of a sub-class of the Hero class, the Good Servant is a quick set of powers for you to choose if you are in a rush to create a character. Good Servants focus on doing good things to others.

Weak Good Servant
Primary Template Cost: 6 HrPs, minimum level 1.
Spare HrPs: 2.
Minor NPC or Monster Template Cost: 4 HrPs, min. level 1.
Skill bonus (2 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +3 bonus to heal check. Base rank 2.
Status Sense (4 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. As a standard action, you can touch a creature and know its status: unharmed, wounded, etc... Base rank 4.

Lesser Good Servant
Primary Template Cost: 34 HrPs, minimum level 5.
Spare HrPs: 6.
Minor NPC or Monster Template Cost: 19 HrPs, min. level 5.
Heal Wound (8 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. Once per day as a standard action you can convert 9 points of damage into subdual damage with a touch. Base rank 8. Increase effect x8 (8 ranks). Limited usage (8 HrPs reduction).
Immunity (4 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You are immune to non-magical disease. Base rank 4.
Self-Subsistent (1 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You do not need to eat. Base rank 1.
Self-Subsistent (1 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You do not need to drink. Base rank 1.
Shield (4 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. You can create a mystical shield in front of yourself, granting a +7 bonus to AC and a +3 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks coming from a choosen 180-degree arc. As a free action once per round you can reasign the angle of the arc. It disapear if you move out of its protection. Base rank 4.
Skill bonus (8 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +12 bonus to heal check. Base rank 2. Increased Effect x3 (6 ranks).
Status Sense (8 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. As a free action, you can touch a creature and know its status: unharmed, wounded, etc... You can know the status of up to 10 creatures per round. Base rank 4. Instant Sense (4 ranks).

Moderate Good Servant
Primary Template Cost: 60 HrPs, minimum level 10.
Spare HrPs: 20.
Minor NPC or Monster Template Cost: 45 HrPs, min. level 6.
Heal Wound (13 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. Once per day as a standard action you can convert 6 points of damage into subdual damage with a touch. Base rank 8. Increase effect x5 (5 ranks).
Immunity (4 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You are immune to non-magical disease. Base rank 4.
Self-Subsistent (1 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You do not need to eat. Base rank 1.
Self-Subsistent (1 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You do not need to drink. Base rank 1.
Shield (12 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. You can create a mystical shield in front of yourself, granting a +7 bonus to AC and a +3 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks coming from a choosen arc up to 360-degree. As a free action once per round you can reasign the angle of the arc. It disapear if you move out of its protection. Base rank 4. Full arc (8 ranks).
Skill bonus (8 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +12 bonus to heal check. Base rank 2. Increased Effect x3 (6 ranks).
Status Sense (12 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. As a free action, you can know the status of a creature within 50 ft.: unharmed, wounded, etc... You can know the status of up to 10 creatures per round. Base rank 4. Instant Sense (4 ranks). Ranged Sense (4 ranks).
Telepathic Charm (9 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. You can charm those that meet your eyes, those that fail their save are charmed for 1day/level. Base rank 10. Incresed Duration (1 ranks). Eyes contact (2 HrPs reduction).

Greater Good Servant
Primary Template Cost: 109 HrPs, minimum level 20.
Spare HrPs: 51.
Minor NPC or Monster Template Cost: 87 HrPs, min. level 20.
Control Water (10 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. This function as the spell of the same name. Base rank 10.
Control Weather (12 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. This function as the spell of the same name in a two-miles radius. Base rank 8. Greater Weather Control (4 ranks).
Heal Wound (23 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. Once per day as a standard action you can convert 10 points of damage into subdual damage with a touch, or within close range, or to all creture in a 10ft. radius burst. Base rank 8. Increase effect x9 (9 ranks). Ranged Healing (2 ranks). Burst Healing (4 ranks)
Immunity (4 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You are immune to non-magical disease. Base rank 4.
Inexhaustible Endurance (4 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You always succeed Constitution checks related to effort of endurance. Base rank 4.
Self-Subsistent (1 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You do not need to eat. Base rank 1.
Self-Subsistent (1 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You do not need to drink. Base rank 1.
Shield (17 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. You can create a mystical shield in front of yourself, granting a +7 bonus to AC and a +3 bonus to Reflex saves against attacks coming from a choosen arc up to 360-degree. As a free action once per round you can reasign the angle of the arc, or you could have your shield block all physical attack trough it. It disapear if you move out of its protection. Base rank 4. Full Arc (8 ranks). Full shield (5 ranks).
Skill bonus (8 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +12 bonus to heal check. Base rank 2. Increased Effect x3 (6 ranks).
Status Sense (20 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. As a free action, you can know the status of a creature within 50 ft.: unharmed, wounded, etc... You also learn the creature current number of hit point, unless they make a will save. You can know the status of up to 10 creatures per round. Base rank 4. Instant Sense (4 ranks). Ranged Sense (4 ranks). Accurate Sense (8 ranks).
Telepathic Charm (9 HrPs): Mystical. Activated. You can charm those that meet your eyes, those that fail their save are charmed for 1day/level. Base rank 10. Incresed Duration (1 ranks). Eyes contact (2 HrPs reduction).


Evil Servant
Like the Blaster, the Evil Servant is sort of a sub-class of the Hero class, the Evil Servant is a quick set of powers for you to choose if you are in a rush to create a character. Evil Servants focus on doing bad things to others.

Weak Evil Servant
Primary Template Cost: 7 HrPs, minimum level 1.
Spare HrPs: 1.
Minor NPC or Monster Template Cost: 6 HrPs, min. level 1.
Heightened Accuracy (3 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +2 accuracy bonus to attack rolls. Base rank 1. Increased Accuracy (2 rank)
Improved Weaponry (3 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +2 damage with the weapon of your choice. Base rank 3.
Super Strike (1 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. Your attack can harm creatures with damage reduction as if you were attacking with a +1 weapon. Base rank 1.

Lesser Evil Servant
Primary Template Cost: 28 HrPs, minimum level 5.
Spare HrPs: 12.
Minor NPC or Monster Template Cost: 22 HrPs, min. level 5.
Enhanced Vision (4 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You have low-light vision and darkvision 60 ft. .Bas rank 2. Darkvision (2 ranks).
Heightened Accuracy (3 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +2 accuracy bonus to attack rolls. Base rank 1. Increased Accuracy (2 rank)
Improved Weaponry (3 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +2 damage with the weapon of your choice. Base rank 3.
Poison (8 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. Whenever you deal unarmed damage to an opponent, it must make a fort save or suffer 2 Wisdom damage. One minute later he must make a second save or take 1 Wisdom damage. DC 14. Base rank 6. Increased Primary Damage (2 ranks).
Super Strike (5 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. Your attack can harm creatures with damage reduction as if you were attacking with a +3 weapon. Base rank 1. Increased Effect x2 (4 ranks).
Telepathic Communication (5 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You can send silent message to someone in your line of sight up to close range. Base rank 5.

Moderate Evil Servant
Primary Template Cost: 66 HrPs, minimum level 10.
Spare HrPs: 14.
Minor NPC or Monster Template Cost: 53 HrPs, min. level 10.
Enhanced Vision (4 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You have low-light vision and darkvision 60 ft. .Bas rank 2. Darkvision (2 ranks).
Heightened Accuracy (7 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +4 accuracy bonus to attack rolls. Base rank 1. Increased Accuracy x3 (6 rank)
Improved Weaponry (3 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +2 damage with the weapon of your choice. Base rank 3.
Poison (12 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. Whenever you deal damage to an opponent through armed or unarmed attack, it must make a fort save or suffer 2 Wisdom damage. One minute later he must make a second save or take 1 Wisdom damage. DC 14. Base rank 6. Poisonlace (4 ranks). Increased Primary Damage (2 ranks).
Super Strike (7 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. Your attack can harm creatures with damage reduction as if you were attacking with a +4 weapon. Base rank 1. Increased Effect x3 (6 ranks).
Telepathic Charm (13 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You can telepathically dominate a humanoid in your line of sight up to close range. Base rank 10. Domination (3 ranks).
Telepathic Communication (7 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You can send silent message to someone in your line of thought up to close range. Base rank 5. Line of thought (2 ranks).
Telepathic Scan (13 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You can detect the surface thought of any creatures you are aware of up to close range. Base rank 11. Line of thought (2 ranks).


Greater Evil Servant
Primary Template Cost: 98 HrPs, minimum level 19.
Spare HrPs: 54.
Minor NPC or Monster Template Cost: 85 HrPs, min. level 19.
Enhanced Vision (4 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You have low-light vision and darkvision 60 ft. .Bas rank 2. Darkvision (2 ranks).
Heightened Accuracy (17 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +9 accuracy bonus to attack rolls. Base rank 1. Increased Accuracy x8 (16 rank)
Improved Weaponry (3 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. +2 damage with the weapon of your choice. Base rank 3.
Poison (22 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. Whenever you deal damage to an opponent through armed or unarmed attack, it must make a fort save or suffer 7 Wisdom damage. One minute later he must make a second save or take 1 Wisdom damage. DC 14. Base rank 6. Poisonlace (4 ranks). Increased Primary Damage x6 (12 ranks).
Super Strike (9 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. Your attack can harm creatures with damage reduction as if you were attacking with a +5 weapon. Base rank 1. Increased Effect x4 (8 ranks).
Telepathic Charm (17 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You can telepathically dominate a humanoid in your line of sight up to close range. Base rank 10. Domination (3 ranks). Linked Power Telepathic Communication, Telepathic Scan (3 ranks). Increased Duration (1 ranks).
Telepathic Communication (10 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You can send silent message to someone in your line of thought up to close range. Base rank 5. Line of thought (2 ranks). Linked Power Telepathic Charm, Telepathic Scan (3 ranks).
Telepathic Scan (16 HrPs): Mystical. Persistent. You can detect the surface thought of any creatures you are aware of up to close range. Base rank 11. Line of thought (2 ranks). Linked Power Telepathic Communication, Telepathic Charm (3 ranks).


Then you'll use the Spare Hero Point to get hit points and/or power specific to your saint patron.

N.B. you have the Deities&Demigods book, don't you?
also, you might be interested in this book:
http://www.enworld.org/d20reviews.asp?sub=yes&where=currentprod&which=cov6

 

[s/LaSH]

Well, here's my two cents:

I'm Catholic and also run a campaign set in pseudohistorical medieval Europe, so I've had to deal with this too. Here's how I put it:

The world isn't ours. There are differences, especially in the way things work down at a basic level. For example, the world really is made up of four elements in varying combinations.

More importantly, there are different planes of existance, which the theologians have divided into 'upper' (good) and 'lower' (evil), with Earth in the middle. This isn't strictly accurate, as it fails to account for the elemental planes, and in fact there are plenty of other 'worlds' out there that are neither good nor evil. However, the good and evil planes still exist, and are flooded with energy of the respective types.

Clerics have been trained to channel this energy (from the upper planes in the case of Christians, Jews and Muslims). This neatly allows them to follow the game mechanics, while also allowing them to beat up on religions following the same philosophy but different politics, and act outside a mandate of relying on miracles. The energy flow attunes their entire being to a certain alignment, so an evil caster finds good magic abhorrent and cannot handle it.

This does require some justification, as divine magic then becomes no different to arcane magic and thus runs a risk of the sin of vanity as expressed in previous posts. There is one important historical change I made that hopefully removes this.

Magic (especially arcane magic) fills the role of technology above a certain point. Where traditional Egyptians might have used an acid cell to electroplate their artifacts (and they did), these nonhistorical Egyptians used shocking grasp spells. Where a blast furnace might be used to forge steel (about which I know very little), the dwarves of my world have a mage to do it.

Of course, very few spells above level 3 are available to arcane casters in the Middle Ages because they represent high technology, and I ruled that fireball was only available in China (replacing their development of gunpowder weapons) at that time. I don't think a sorcerer would have any such problems, because their magic is instinctive, not learned, under the traditional rules.

Also, it never entered my mind that I might involve God or Satan in the campaign directly. They'd be far too powerful. (Infinity and the thing directly below infinity, respectively.) Messengers and representatives of more powerful races is as far as I'd go.

This is just my world, and it's more fantastic than you might be looking for; I've replaced whole areas of Europe with elves, got gnolls working for Saladin, and introduced a dragon that once destroyed a Roman legion because they got on his bad side. Check out my webcomic (it's in my sig) for more details.


Right, on to some other points:

Lucifer, Morning Star, was the greatest of the angels, to memory, even greater than Michael (who nevertheless is prophecied to beat him, I think). Legend and lore gives him (if you can call such a mighty being 'him') powers such as wishes, and the whole malefic witchcraft thing certainly attributes him the ability to grant followers powers. (An important note: English common law distinguished between white and black magic, but Continental law didn't. Also, witches rode their broomsticks with the bristles out the front.) So if you do decide to personify him, he's probably greater than anything else, including Michael (who might have been training, DragonBallZ style, to beat him).

Angels themselves are mighty beings. I don't know whether they can die or be killed (probably not), and they don't tend to grant powers. They do, however, have great abilities that they can use directly. This also goes for demons, which are just fallen angels. If you still want the players to have a show in Hell if they go up against these things, I'd consider using either avatars (the demons they fight are just shadows of the demon's true self) or making the 'rules demons' 'just' native inhabitants of other planes or creations of the true demons.

Finally, a word on other religions. I've been reading Gibbon's Decline And Fall Of The Roman Empire, which discusses the rise of Christianity at one point, and it seems that early theologians decided that these gods either didn't exist or were demons trying to co-opt the souls of mortals. If I may, I'll suggest a further alternative: They're simply beings far greater than us, immortal or nearly so, and wielding incredible powers. Again, there are few records of powers granted to followers, although some created artifacts that could be wielded by nearly anybody (Aphrodite's girdle of irresistability was sometimes borrowed, although I can't say the same for Mjolnir).

Of course, there is no place in the Bible for such 'third-option' gods; they're greater than humans, but live on Earth, not Heaven or Hell. Personally, I believe that the Universe began in the Big Bang, and if humans try to say we're the purpose of creation, better than anything else in the Universe, we're guilty of sinful arrogance, but if a gaming universe began in the biblical fashion, then these 'gods' couldn't have arisen in that fashion, so they're either demons or tricks.

Well, exchange rates considered, this was actually worth less than one US penny. Oh well. Hope it's useful.

 

[Piratecat]

s/LaSH, you do a comic of your D&D game? That's it. You're officially cooler than I am. Welcome to the boards.

By the way, everyone, thanks for not turning this thread into a flamefest. Very impressive.