once and for all, can you wield 2 implements?

[SableWyvern]

Here's one I haven't seen mentioned/asked before:

If a wizard casts sleep using his Wand +1, can he then use his Orb of Imposition class feature (assuming, of course, that he also has an orb)?

 

[Tripgnosis]

...if you have resist 5 fire and necrotic from suit of black iron armor, and resist 5 poison from an amulet of health, you can't "use" both sets of resistance against a single attack...

CS was referring specifically to implements and not other magic items

Not true. Question 3 asks about properties, and there the answer is the same.

The answer he gave assumes you are "casting a spell" with the implement (i.e. using a power) which would mean the associated properties are not passive

You can carry 2 implements at once and alternate their use. You cannot use two at the same time (see PHB page 224 Magic Item Categories)....

...Personally I'm thinking of stopping the Reaving Rod from killing minions, as it can ruin scenes all to easily.

PHB 224 also seems to be relevant only to the active use of the implement and not simply recieving a passive bonus. The nature of passive bonuses is that they require no activation, or 'use'.

and as for the reaving not killing minions, I think it should along the same lines that cloud of daggers does. It's the all-minion-death-combo I have a problem with, and similiar game-breaking combos in the future....

 

[Tripgnosis]

after reading the PHB some more (pg 224, as suggested) I'm wondering if "Implement" refers both to the type AND the slot. If so, then you could only benefit from one implement at a time whether the bonus was passive or active. even though you could feasibly carry and 'wield' both implements, only one's effects would be active. Just as, though your could feasibly wear 16 amulets like a medieval Mr-T, you would only receive the benefits of one amulet whether those benefits were passive or active. I think this interpretation is about as fair as you could get, and unfortunately the PHB is a bit vague on this. It says each magical item takes up a slot, but it never defines the slot that the implement holds.

in any case, to avoid confusion, I would suggest not wielding 2 implements, or even trying to. The rules are crystal clear hen it comes to wielding ONE implement....

ANother point to consider is 2 weapon fighting. The PHB is pretty clear that even though you can hold a weapon in each hand, you don't benefit from that unless you have a feat or power that specifically says so. You can logically apply this to implements as well, and since no feat or power (as of yet) specifically grants benefits from wielding 2 implements, it's safe to assume that you cannot. It's all still a bit fuzzy, but I think this interpretation is at least fair and balanced. And that's what I'm looking for. I don't want to exploit the rules....

 

[ObsidianCrane]

PHB 224 also seems to be relevant only to the active use of the implement and not simply recieving a passive bonus. The nature of passive bonuses is that they require no activation, or 'use'.

If you are not useing the item you cannot recieve passive bonuses from the item. This is spelt out on page 224, "gain benefit from only one magic item that you wear in your arms slot even if, practically speaking, you can wear bracers and carry a shield at the same time."

One item per slot at a time.

The issue is actually; is "Implement" the slot or "Rod". If it is not "Implement" then you can indeed apparently use an Orb and a Wand at the same time, but not two Wands, which is a little wonky.

 

[Keenath]

It's not really a big deal. There are rules for what happens if you use two weapons at the same time. There are no rules for using two implements; thus you can't do it.

You can HOLD two implements, but each turn you'll have to decide which one you're "weilding". You can have a Rod of Corruption in your right hand and a Rod of Reaving in your left -- but if you attack with the Rod of Reaving and kill a target, you can't use the Corruption effect. Likewise, if you're weilding a rod of Corruption and the target dies, you can transfer the curse -- but you can't "reave" those targets because you aren't weilding the Rod of Reaving.

Edit: What do you mean, "implement slot"? You have two Hands slots, which can hold weapons, implements, torches, etc. The only issue is that there are no rules for how to handle dual-weilding implements -- which means you can't do it even if you can technically hold more than one at a time, just like how you can wear an arm item and a shield at the same time, but only one of them works. There are rules for dual-weilded weapons, so you can do that.

 

[Dausuul]

"Critical" isn't a property, so that may have confused CS.

Are you seriously contending that, if you have resist 5 fire and necrotic from suit of black iron armor, and resist 5 poison from an amulet of health, you can't "use" both sets of resistance against a single attack? Seriously, if you take 6 points of necrotic and poison damage, you should resist both damage types, and thus only suffer one point of damage. Any other result is crazy talk.

Of course you can combine them. They occupy different slots. What you can't do is put on a robe that gives you resist 5 cold, and use that along with the black iron armor. You can get either the benefit of the robe, or the benefit of the armor, but not both at the same time.

The real question is whether you can use a weapon in one hand, an implement in the other, and get the passive benefits from both.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

What do you mean, "implement slot"? You have two Hands slots, which can hold weapons, implements, torches, etc. The only issue is that there are no rules for how to handle dual-weilding implements -- which means you can't do it even if you can technically hold more than one at a time, just like how you can wear an arm item and a shield at the same time, but only one of them works. There are rules for dual-weilded weapons, so you can do that.

I mean Magic Item useage is not restricted by ability to adorn yourself with magic items or carry them about.

Its quite clearly restricted by the Slot rules on page 224 (which actually creates a problem for weapons and duel wielding now that I think about it).

 

[Tripgnosis]

The problem with the slots is that, on page 224, the PHB states that "Within the broad category of clothing, items are grouped by kind of clothing... ...these are called slots." (Emphasis mine) This doesn't apply to implements or weapons, which are both DIFFERENT broad categories, of which no slots have been defined

If you look at the entry for any magic implement and compare it to the entry for a magical shield, for example, you'll notice that the shield specifically takes up the arms slot. But for the implements, no slot is defined. So judging by that alone, implements don't occupy a slot....

 

[Tripgnosis]

I sent this question to WOTC CS -

"There has been much discussion on enworld concerning dual wielding implements. This is the thread I started if you'd like to have a look -

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-4t...l-can-you-wield-2-implements.html#post4465973

In a nutshell, my question is this: Can you gain the PASSIVE bonuses of 2 implements simultaneously? I understand pretty clearly that only one implement's enhancement bonus or critical damage bonus would apply when using a power. But the properties of many implements don't require any action or 'use', hence 'passive'

Here's my example for further clarification:

Rod of reaving +1 in right hand, rod of corruption + 1 in the left.
I use the rod of reaving to place a curse on my nearest enemy who happens to be a minion. Rod of reaving deals 1 damage and the minion dies. Can I no use the passive effect of the rod of corruption to transfer the curse, foregoing my pact boon? If this IS legal, I would assume that the newly cursed enemies don't also recieve 1 damage from the rod of reaving, because teh curse was TRANSFERRED to them rather than PLACED, and the rod of reaving only deals damage when a curse is PLACED.

There has been alot of debate on this, and though I like the idea of stacking passive effects, I only like it if it was intended and purposefully allowed, rather than it being an oversight and therefore an exploit. Balnce and fairness is infinately important to me. Thank you in advance for resolving this for us.

-DAVE"

If/when I receive an answer, I will post it here

 

[Tripgnosis]

I got an answer from CS -


"Greetings Dave,

No, you cannot. You don't get any bonuses from Implements until you use them for a power, in which case you only get the bonus from the Implement you used to use the power.

Please let me know if you have any more questions!

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Charles
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Not sure if he read the whole thing, or checked this post. He may have answered the in-a-nutshell question as soon as he saw it, and didn't read further. But still, his answer seems pretty much in-line with what I was thinking...