Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[Intense_Interest]

This is quite a tangent, but Olympic weightlifter Halil Mutlu, at 4'11" and 133 pounds, was able to clean & jerk 168 kg (370 lbs) overhead. His heart has not exploded.

360lbs is an 18STR feat. Halil has 18STR even at 133lbs. He is not 85lbs (Halfing) nor is he trying to lift 400 or 540lbs (20 or 26 STR).

The point of the Tangent being that "Martial" isn't as mundane as you think it is.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I agree that daily or per encounter martial abilities are less realistic than a hypothetical game system in which things are just as fun and worth playing as they are in 4e, but are completely realistic and plausible mechanically as well.

But you know what's better than that? A hypothetical game system in which things are just as fun and worth playing as they are in 4e, but are completely realistic and plausible mechanically as well, AND YOU GET A PONY!

Hypotheticals only get us so far.

What am I supposed to do with a Pony?!!!

 

[mmadsen]

The point of the Tangent being that "Martial" isn't as mundane as you think it is.

You've lost me again.

I think we can agree that all mundane powers are martial, even though not all martial powers are mundane.

Anyway, the problem -- and it's obviously only a problem for some people -- is that these martial exploits face meta-game constraints, not in-game constraints. The player is making decisions based on totally different criteria from his character.

I don't have a perfect, fully-formed alternative set of rules ready to go, but we can discuss alternatives that would make more sense than one-per-day exploits.

For instance, if we want to emulate the rarity of good openings for spectacular moves, we can allow a quasi-attack roll each turn. Choose an exploit, roll to not-quite-attack, and if you "hit", you see an opening and perform your exploit. If you "miss", you don't see an opening, and you fall back on your basic attack.

That's just off the top of my head, but it moves a meta-game resource back into the game as a question of whether there's an opening or not.

 

[Intense_Interest]

I think we can agree that all mundane powers are martial, even though not all martial powers are mundane.

So what is the problem with "Eye of the Tiger" being a 1/day resource when it isn't a question of physical properties? If the 1/day Martial powers are asymptomatic of how your mundane body acts, there is no need for you to staple on a crufty DC 50 Endurance check to regain it; it becomes a solely meta-game constraint only if you build the in-game to question it.

 

[Cadfan]

That's just off the top of my head, but it moves a meta-game resource back into the game as a question of whether there's an opening or not.

It also puts us squarely back in the "create one super attack, then spam it" technique of melee combat.

Which apparently some people like.

But those people are also apparently in the minority, so, sucks to be them.

 

[mmadsen]

If the 1/day Martial powers are asymptomatic of how your mundane body acts, there is no need for you to staple on a crufty DC 50 Endurance check to regain it; it becomes a solely meta-game constraint only if you build the in-game to question it.

What?

If something is constrained by the rules to once-per-day, but within the game world it's not specifically constrained to once-per-day (but has some other constraints, like spotting a rare opening), then that once-per-day constraint is a meta-game constraint.

I'd have to think long and hard to come up with anything mundane that actually has a once-per-day constraint in real life.

 

[mmadsen]

It also puts us squarely back in the "create one super attack, then spam it" technique of melee combat.

No, not quite. You can't pull off your super-attack every turn. You can look for the opening, but you can't pull it off.

Further, you presumably have a menu of super-attacks that are better in different circumstances, so you look to try the right one at the right time.

It's not perfect though, agreed; it's just something I aome up with off the top of my head to spur discussion.

But those people are also apparently in the minority, so, sucks to be them.

Are you angry?

 

[Intense_Interest]

What?

If something is constrained by the rules to once-per-day, but within the game world it's not specifically constrained to once-per-day (but has some other constraints, like spotting a rare opening), then that once-per-day constraint is a meta-game constraint.

I'd have to think long and hard to come up with anything mundane that actually has a once-per-day constraint in real life.

*So what is the problem with "Eye of the Tiger" being a 1/day resource when it isn't a question of physical properties?
​

In case you missed it in your egregious snipe there. Considering you said that "I think we can agree that all mundane powers are martial, even though not all martial powers are mundane.", I think you are being obtuse.

 

[mmadsen]

So what is the problem with "Eye of the Tiger" being a 1/day resource when it isn't a question of physical properties?

I haven't made any claims about Eye of the Tiger, and I don't have its entry right in front of me. Would you care to explain your point?

 

[Intense_Interest]

"I think we can agree that all mundane powers are martial, even though not all martial powers are mundane."

yet

I'd have to think long and hard to come up with anything mundane that actually has a once-per-day constraint in real life.

So using your own logic, the answer is that daily abilities are not mundane.