Once per day non-magical effects destroy suspension of disbelief

[mmadsen]

Exactly. The daily power work better as the alternatives presented so far.

I suspect that's true, but that doesn't mean that all complaints are invalid, and it certainly doesn't mean we should drop all discussion of how to do it better -- that is, with equally simple mechanics that make more sense.

 

[Plane Sailing]

You don't realize that you're not even thinking at this point. Everything is a preprogrammed response. Every response is hackneyed. Your response has very little to do with 4e. The only connection to 4e is such reponses are trite, abundant, and unoriginal. I have a hard time believing that you are a sincere critic when your reponses are so banal.

Attacking other posters is against the rules. I'm banning you from this thread, and if you continue the practice you'll get a suspension from the boards.

Feel free to email me if you don't understand this.

 

[Cadfan]

I agree that daily or per encounter martial abilities are less realistic than a hypothetical game system in which things are just as fun and worth playing as they are in 4e, but are completely realistic and plausible mechanically as well.

But you know what's better than that? A hypothetical game system in which things are just as fun and worth playing as they are in 4e, but are completely realistic and plausible mechanically as well, AND YOU GET A PONY!

Hypotheticals only get us so far.

 

[The Little Raven]

And if you're modeling action movie reality, most of the fighter's daily exploits read like they shouldn't be daily powers, but usable at will, especially against lesser foes.

Not really.

I mean, you don't see The Bride using the "Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique" on everyone, just once against the BBEG. You don't see Choder Boy using Hamster Style until it really calls for it. You don't see John McClane blowing up helicopters with cars more than once a movie at the most. Blade doesn't use his one-hit kill on Quinn until the time is right.

Action movie stars don't use their baddest moves at all times, because it just cheapens them.

 

[mmadsen]

...AND YOU GET A PONY!

I'm sorry, did I say something snarky to you? You seem upset.

Anyway, my point is that daily powers may "work" OK for many people, but that doesn't mean that all complaints are invalid, and it certainly doesn't mean we should drop all discussion of how to do it better -- that is, with equally simple mechanics that make more sense.

 

[Intense_Interest]

Anyway, my point is that daily powers may "work" OK for many people, but that doesn't mean that all complaints are invalid, and it certainly doesn't mean we should drop all discussion of how to do it better -- that is, with equally simple mechanics that make more sense.

The real comment that you sniped from was about how this discussion isn't about Theoretical Physics: you have to provide testable mechanics to discuss for your personal anecdote to even qualify as Theory instead of mad ravings.

Is there a mechanic that is simple and sensible, especially in a game where the physical anatomy of a Dwarf would suggest that their hearts would explode when they approach 20 STR?

 

[mmadsen]

The real comment that you sniped from was about how this discussion isn't about Theoretical Physics: you have to provide testable mechanics to discuss for your personal anecdote to even qualify as Theory instead of mad ravings.

Is there a mechanic that is simple and sensible, especially in a game where the physical anatomy of a Dwarf would suggest that their hearts would explode when they approach 20 STR?

I have no idea what you're talking about, or why you'd accuse me of mad ravings. Exploding dwarf hearts?

 

[wally]

I didn't realize these were shortcomings in 3e. Where there people out there complaining about abstract combat features in 3e like hit points and AC? I don't seem to remember much of it. Or are you specifically refering to the use of daily limitations? Because I don't remember that being a complaint with regards to the barbarian rage, monk's stunning fist, etc. either.

It seems to me that people had no problem whatsoever suspending their disbelief without any problem using abstract systems in the past. I think the difference in this situation is simply that it is something new and on a larger scale. For years people have been dealing with the abstract notion of hitpoints, ac and others without a problem, simply because they have always been there. With something new, it will just take some time to adjust. Afterall, should the person playing the barbarian in 3e really have a problem suspending disbelief because of a daily limit? I wouldn't think so.

I think it is a little in line with what you are saying. Previously, a barbarian could only rage x times per day (depending upon level), which ended up being explained, either by your interpretation of the rules, or by your DM stating why it happened that way.

The problem I think most people have is that previously, you only had a few things like this that you had to explain. Now every power needs an excuse due to them all being put into a category that is usable only x times per day.

Previously, many of the class abilities that were physical in nature (ie. rogues sneak attack) weren't limited per day, and now that you limit physical abilities per day, many of the excuses that people come up with don't necessarily work for everyone, and since 4e seems to just say, 'separate your mindset from your character's and you'll be fine,' people are complaining.

You can rely upon your DM coming up with an excuse, 'The fellow you are fighting didn't just line up properly this time,' or you can let the player decide, 'my character thinks he is trying the same move again, but I will actually use a lesser one and apply damage as it is similar.' Either way, it is a big change from previous, and it isn't easy for people to just want to accept because it is the newest edition.

-wally

 

[Intense_Interest]

I have no idea what you're talking about, or why you'd accuse me of mad ravings. Exploding dwarf hearts?

Alright, Strength is a linear progression, as from page 222 of PHB: 10 STR lifts 200 lbs while moving, while 20 STR lifts 400 lbs while moving, etc etc. The Weight and Height of a Dwarf, from page 36, is around 4'3" to 4'9" an 160-220.

Even assuming a Sizable Dwarf, a 4'9" 220 lb being, even being broadly stocky enough to support additional weight at that moment, would have non-trivial medical problems when they approach the scales of 400lb and 540lbs.

This is beyond considering a STR 18 360lb lifting 85lb halfling being just incredulous.

 

[mmadsen]

Alright, Strength is a linear progression, as from page 222 of PHB: 10 STR lifts 200 lbs while moving, while 20 STR lifts 400 lbs while moving, etc etc. The Weight and Height of a Dwarf, from page 36, is around 4'3" to 4'9" an 160-220.

Even assuming a Sizable Dwarf, a 4'9" 220 lb being, even being broadly stocky enough to support additional weight at that moment, would have non-trivial medical problems when they approach the scales of 400lb and 540lbs.

This is beyond considering a STR 18 360lb lifting 85lb halfling being just incredulous.

This is quite a tangent, but Olympic weightlifter Halil Mutlu, at 4'11" and 133 pounds, was able to clean & jerk 168 kg (370 lbs) overhead. His heart has not exploded.