D&D (2024) One D&d and alignment: new approach

[CreamCloud0]

Edgy backstory isn't evil in an of itself is my point.

But it's just a preference. I don't find antihero fiction enjoyable, whether it's a book, tv or any other entertainment. I'm quite up front about it when inviting people to my games so it's never been an issue.

So what you were saying wasn’t that ‘evil PC characters aren’t actually a viable thing’ but ‘I personally don’t want evil PC characters in my games’ right?

Which kind of feels like you missed the point of that part of my original post but whatever

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I think you misinterpreted my point, you seem to be saying there ‘well alot of evil characters should actually be considered neutral’ but I’m saying ‘evil pc characters are often banned wholesale from games because of the problems caused by evil aligned characters, but it is actually the players of those evil characters responsible for their behavior and who can play problematic characters of any alignment rather than the evil alignment itself’

Evil to me is more about valuing yourself and what you care about (which can include the party) above anyone or anything else, not specifically committing atrocities or stabbing random NPCs for funzies.

Yeah I've noticed that lots of people confuse 'evil' and 'chaotic stupid'.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Yeah I've noticed that lots of people confuse 'evil' and 'chaotic stupid'.

True, although chaotic stupid is it’s own problem that isn’t exclusive to evil characters, the biggest quote-unquote ‘problem’ with evil characters is ‘arbitrary evil’ where the players will take any opportunity to take an evil action even if it doesn’t benefit or even actively hinders them or their group because ‘it is the evil thing to do, and so I must do it’ although the two phenomena are fairly similar,

Similarly the tendency for evil players to go to unnecessary extremes in their evil.

Edit: problems arise when people treat the definition of evil as cruel rather than selfish/self-centred

 

[Oofta]

So what you were saying wasn’t that ‘evil PC characters aren’t actually a viable thing’ but ‘I personally don’t want evil PC characters in my games’ right?

Which kind of feels like you missed the point of that part of my original post but whatever

Running an evil character does not have to be about screwing over fellow party members to be objectionable to me. It doesn't have to be doing evil things just to be evil.

It's the guy who casually rapes. That describes how they murder someone after getting information from them so they wouldn't talk, going into gross details. It's casually killing innocents because it was more convenient. Going step by step how they torture someone to get them to talk.

You don't have to play a crazed sociopathic serial killer who strikes out randomly to be objectionable to me. You just have to play someone evil that repeatedly does evil things.

I want to play, and run games for, heroes not thugs.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Running an evil character does not have to be about screwing over fellow party members to be objectionable to me. It doesn't have to be doing evil things just to be evil.

It's the guy who casually rapes. That describes how they murder someone after getting information from them so they wouldn't talk, going into gross details. It's casually killing innocents because it was more convenient. Going step by step how they torture someone to get them to talk.

You don't have to play a crazed sociopathic serial killer who strikes out randomly to be objectionable to me. You just have to play someone evil that repeatedly does evil things.

I want to play, and run games for, heroes not thugs.

And I’m saying that you don’t have to be doing those things, rape, murder and torture, to be an Evil alignment character, they are not necessary, you can play an evil character who is a perfectly amiable person but is not a good moral person, you can have your Loki’s and Rocket Raccoon’s, Zapp Brannigan’s and Bender’s, Snape’s and Harley Quinn’s and all the other evil characters who are not pillars of moral integrity but who are also not complete degenerates.

Edit: if your player is going to play an awful person they don’t need to be of picked the evil alignment to do that, it’s not the alignment itself that’s the problem.

 

[Andvari]

As a GM, I find alignment useful for determining, at a glance, how to run short term monsters and NPC.

 

[Oofta]

And I’m saying that you don’t have to be doing those things, rape, murder and torture, to be an evil character, they are not necessary, you can play an evil character who is a perfectly amiable person but is not a good person, you can have your Loki’s and Rocket Raccoon’s, Zapp Brannigan’s and Bender’s, Snape’s and Harley Quinn’s and all the other evil characters who are not pillars of moral integrity but who are also not complete degenerates.

If you play a character that never actually does anything evil, are they actually evil? I can't speak to every character, but Rocket is neutral, as is Loki in the MCU when he's not under the influence of the mind stone and killing everyone in sight.

If you never murder, rape or torture why is the character evil? Being selfish and self centered doesn't make you evil by itself. It's what you're willing to do (or not do) that matters.

 

[payn]

If you play a character that never actually does anything evil, are they actually evil? I can't speak to every character, but Rocket is neutral, as is Loki in the MCU when he's not under the influence of the mind stone and killing everyone in sight.

If you never murder, rape or torture why is the character evil? Being selfish and self centered doesn't make you evil by itself. It's what you're willing to do (or not do) that matters.

I suppose it’s a matter of degrees, Rape just isn’t in my games so that’s out. Though when it comes to murder and killing I don’t think an evil character has to do it daily. For me it’s a matter of killing being in the tool box as an option and not a last resort. Doing it for the greater good like the only kills bad dudes assassin archetype is iconic and a type that plays well with others. YMMV

 

[CreamCloud0]

If you play a character that never actually does anything evil, are they actually evil? I can't speak to every character, but Rocket is neutral, as is Loki in the MCU when he's not under the influence of the mind stone and killing everyone in sight.

If you never murder, rape or torture why is the character evil? Being selfish and self centered doesn't make you evil by itself. It's what you're willing to do (or not do) that matters.

So your view is anything less than the complete absence of morality is just neutral, there are no ‘moderate evils’

Edit: Rocket was sociopathic and loki was only ever in it for himself, just because there were worse people on the other side it doesn’t make them good people

 

[Oofta]

So your view is anything less than the complete absence of morality is just neutral, there are no ‘moderate evils’

Edit: Rocket was sociopathic and loki was only ever in it for himself, just because there were worse people on the other side it doesn’t make them good people

Rocket had a lot of fun blowing things up, but he wasn't running around killing just for fun or stealing from people that were starving. Enjoying your job doesn't make you evil.

Loki stopped the whole murderous mayhem when he was no longer being controlled. He even risked himself for the sake of others. Pretending to be Odin wasn't a good thing, but he wasn't really causing harm either.

So I'm not sure why you think they would qualify as evil. On the other hand I don't care what alignment my player's characters have written down for alignment, I'll just let them know if they're crossing the line into P becoming NPC territory by committing evil actions.

TLDR: not being good does not make you evil.