OneDnD One D&D Playtest Expert Classes survey is up! Update! Now due Nov 23rd.

darjr

I crit!
Update. Now due Nov 23rd.
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Open until Nov 10th. Now open till Nov 23rd. The Expert Classes playtest survey is live.
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DnD Warlord

Adventurer
was this fast? like I know I just found out but it looks like this was out less then 2 months? how can even the most hard core 'gets to play every week' gamer make it through more then a small handful of levels in 2 months?
 


was this fast? like I know I just found out but it looks like this was out less then 2 months? how can even the most hard core 'gets to play every week' gamer make it through more then a small handful of levels in 2 months?
I am going to guess you didnt see the first one, 3-4 weeks seems to be all we will get. I feel In MY opinion it is more spin and public advertisement then playtest at this point.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
Took me a solid 20 minutes to complete. @GMforPowergamers I agree that the playtest is primarily about change management and advertising, but I also think that the results of the surveys will have an effect on the final game in 2024. I think there are things they are certain they want to adjust, but quite a bit that they are truly testing audience reaction to see if it should be changed/included.
 

Took me a solid 20 minutes to complete.
took me only a little longer, this was a good length but not super long one.
@GMforPowergamers I agree that the playtest is primarily about change management and advertising, but I also think that the results of the surveys will have an effect on the final game in 2024.
I agree. I don't think they are chucking the results in a bin. I think they are more feeling out what they can and can't change. I imagine (and this is pure speculation) they have a 'we playtested and this is what we want to release' version about half done maybe first draft maybe more... and 'here are some changes we aren't sure about' and the feed back we give will massage that.
If we all vote "I hate the bard!" it doesn't matter what they have written they will make changes (just an example I don't hate the bard). but they will be small changes, we are seeing the overall layout and concepts that are already in gear.
 

OB1

Jedi Master
My strongest negative feedback in the survey was around the new Nat1 Heroic Inspiration (which my group rejected completly after loving the Playtest 1 Nat20/Crit rules) and the new Investigation/Search/Influence Actions, which I feel are unnecessary and too codified. I gave strong a strongly positive review to Expert Class grouping in general and the Ranger specifically, and while I think the Bard and Rogue are fine, I'm not sure they are 'better' than the 2014 versions, just different.
 



Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
was this fast? like I know I just found out but it looks like this was out less then 2 months? how can even the most hard core 'gets to play every week' gamer make it through more then a small handful of levels in 2 months?
Packets are coming about once a month, with surveys coming 2-3 weeks after. I don’t think they’re expecting us to thoroughly playtest anything in the packets. They just want to get our general impressions so they can weed out anything that’s a clear and resounding “no” on its face.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
was this fast? like I know I just found out but it looks like this was out less then 2 months? how can even the most hard core 'gets to play every week' gamer make it through more then a small handful of levels in 2 months?
In aggregate, they'll get plenty of information. the most important thing is how these options feel, frankly. They are entirely capable of balancing the mechanics in house, but sometimes the community falsely decides something is broken with such a resounding consensus that they end up changing it in spite of it being completely fine by the numbers.

The Four Elements Monk is a great example. They overvalued ki points in relation to spell slots, valued getting to choose from a list rather than getting set spells highly enough to cost shadow spells and 4elements spells differently, and while all of that made perfect sense on paper, the 4elements just sucks to play for a large swath of players, so it will almost certainly get some sort of change.

I'm hoping they recycle the wu jen psionic disciplines from the mystic for the four elements monk, tbh. Steal it's name, too, and make the lore around the class less orientalist, while we're at it.

/tangent

As for the survey, I was mildly surprised at how negative my detailed feedback was.

I had a box for written feedback for the rogue, so it's only some respondents experiencing that issue.

I gave almost entirely negative feedback on the Bard. Leaning more heavily into spellcasting rather than bardic inspiration, reducing choices, "normalizing" everything in general, all leading to a Bard that just might as well be a variant Rogue at this point. And I say that as someone who vehemently opposing consolidating the classes. This is a bad version of the Bard. The Lore College is even worse than the base class. After level 3, it has nothing that relates remotely to knowledge. Swap the extra skills for a choice of social skills, and rename it something related to being the guy satirizing the king, or dressing down the villain until he relents, etc, with flavor pulled from Irish and Scandinavian bardic archetypes, and give it a ribbon "you can gain entrance to courts and noble households in exchange for performance and bringing news from the road, and the common folk are usually eager to share gossip with you and listen to your stories and hear new songs." I'd love it, then.

As it is, it's eating a very good Bardic archetype while doing nothing to actually fulfill that archetype.

The Ranger was mostly positive, with only a couple sore spots. Nature's Veil would be good if it didn't cost a spell slot, but is absolutely a waste of said slot as is. Either buff the effect, preferably by letting the ranger share the effect with at least one ally, or drop the spell slot cost. Foe Slayer is still terrible at that level. No one is excited to get that at level 18. I'd barely be excited about it at level 11.

Hunter is just...boring. This impulse designers have to listen to optimizer and rework the game to drop the options the optimizers ignore is bad for games. I told them it reads like they spend too much time listening to people who yell online.

Rogue is fine, though I challenged the change to Sneak Attack. if the point is to limit the rogue to 1 use per round, just do that. Directly. let the rogue who misses on their turn use SA if they get a reaction attack.

The Thief is excellent. I want to play a Thief with the Athlete feat and maybe Charger immediately. Charger makes a great Fleche fencer, and with the rest of the build makes such a fast and aggressive swashbuckling rogue that I don't know if I even need the Swashbuckler anymore.

I took a break to write this post, and I'm going to move on to feats. There are just so damn many.
 

UngainlyTitan

Legend
Supporter
My strongest negative feedback in the survey was around the new Nat1 Heroic Inspiration (which my group rejected completly after loving the Playtest 1 Nat20/Crit rules) and the new Investigation/Search/Influence Actions, which I feel are unnecessary and too codified. I gave strong a strongly positive review to Expert Class grouping in general and the Ranger specifically, and while I think the Bard and Rogue are fine, I'm not sure they are 'better' than the 2014 versions, just different.
While I have no strong opinion on when the Heroic Inspiration is gained, I really like the new Investigation/Search/Influence actions as it explicitly puts weight on skills that think are overused.
I am mostly positive on the proposed changes overall I do not like having to decide on stuff without full context as to how it interacts with the rest of the rules.
For instance, I do not have a strong opinion against prepared casters, I would not like, all prepared casters to follow the same mechanic nor do I like the particular version given and I would like to see some spells known casters retained.
I also do not like that the rogue cannot use SA on a delayed/readied action and in fact I would rather than weapon users could use their full attack action on a delayed/readied action.
I am not too bothered about the OA use case.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Feats.

the good
Actor is great. Athlete is great. Charger is great. I want to play a Thief with the Athlete feat and maybe Charger immediately. Charger makes a great Fleche fencer, and with the rest of the build makes such a fast and aggressive swashbuckling rogue that I don't know if I even need the Swashbuckler anymore. Beautiful. It sings.

Crossbow Expert is fine, and I like that it isn't required to do the sword and hand-crossbow style, it just makes it easier.

Grappler, combined with the new unarmed strike rules, is fantastic. My monk will absolutely take it if it makes it to print.

GWM is cool. I like it. I don't really know why they changed the damage buff to adding PB to damage, but it works fine.

Mounted Combatant is cool. I'd take it as a mounted character, which is more than I can say for the original.

Ritual Caster is great. More like this, please.

Sentinel was fine as is, and this is fine. Cool. Sharpshooter is exactly what I want from such a feat now. I'd actually be excited to see a player take it.

Shield Master is good. Some will be mad it doesn't allow a bash-then-stab, but whatever. It's a good feat. Interpose Shield is solid.
the bad
Defensive Duelist is terrible. Make it either work like Deflect Arrows, make it last until the start of your next turn like Shield, or ditch the ASI and drop it to level 1. It's so bad. I can't even. make it the Great Weapon Master of duelist builds. So frustrating. One of my favorite things is to build a duelist that is good at the old parry-riposte. The fact that a feat called Defensive Duelist pretends to help with part of that but is actually next to worthless, sucks.

Dual Wielder sucks. I've got multiple people in my games who flat out can't update to these rules because this feat just gives you benefits that should just be general rules, and doesn't let you fight case, with two equally sized weapons that aren't small, traditionally two full length rapiers IRL, but in fantasy it's just as common to swing a staff and longsword or a sword and an axe, or whatever.
The idea of taking a feat to be able to use a rapier and main gouche is just...mindbogglingly silly.

I rated all fighting style feats very dissatisfied. They were never worth a feat, but at least the old feat that grants one doesn't waste a ton of page space making each one it's own feat. At least they're 1st level feats, but 1st level feats have their own problems as a concept right now, which I'll complain about downpost.

I laughed aloud when I read Heavily Armored. I can't believe they still think that's worth a feat. Same with Lightly Armored, though tbh at least it gives medium armor and shields. I'd just combine them with their mastery feats. Don't chain stuff like this, it's not worth it.

Keen Mind...why? I liked the original, but I get why it needed an update. Still, this isn't it. The original was very cool conceptually. Expertise in one knowledge skill in place of an eidetic memory? Really? No thanks.

IDK what they were thinking with the change to Mage Slayer. not worth a feat, and the original is one of my favorite feats.

Medium Armor Master... you might well have taken a feat to be able to take this. What on earth!? A very roundabout +1 AC. Not worth a feat.

Observant and Keen Mind represent the single thing I most hope gets soundly rejected in this UA. Normalization of features. I usually call it obsessive symmetry, because it is very similar to a painter ruining their own work by obsessing over symmetry at the expense of actually expressing what they're trying to express. Don't make the game less interesting. Observant needed an update, it didn't need to made into a needlessly specific version of skilled expert.

Skulker...I grimaced reading this one. Blindsight 10ft? Seriously? The original version did not need an update. Does the stealth in combat feature even help much with the stealth rules in this UA? IIRC stealth explicitly doesn't work if any hostile creature has line of sight to you, now? Whatever, if they fix the stealth rules so that stealth rogues can actually work, the feat is still pretty good, I just don't see any value in changing the vision part of the feat.

Speedster why do they keep trying to ruin my favorite feats. At least they didn't name this Mobile, because it sure as hell isn't a viable replacement for Mobile. I mean it's fine, I guess. Why does it require dashing to work?

Spell Sniper. Absolutely not. this was not a top tier feat, it was just fun and cool. Stop nerfing things that aren't top tier.

Weapon Training didn't get any better. I mean, sure they all gained +1 ASI, but if that is why so many feats got nerfed, then ditch that immediately. Either way, doesn't explain why this feat is still terrible.

And there's still the rules, I assume...

edit: oh! general feedback.

1st level feats and 4th level feats should be balanced with eachother when you ignore the +1 ASI on 4th level feats. 1st level feats should then have a clause that if you take them after level 1 you get a +1 ASI. this way some stuff is still level gated, and level 1 is still mostly utility and theme stuff, but level 1 feats aren't a trap option after level 1.
 


doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
okay I gave perfunctory feedback on the spell list. Basically that their neat little organization idea shouldn't cost classes iconic spells like Bards losing Bane, and that if they keep it, the need to add a list of bonus spells for each class, to cover those gaps without having wizards casting bane.

for the rules, I'm not leaving too much detailed feedback. For the most part, just the rating speaks perfectly fine for me. But Hidden and Hide Action are problematic, so I've told them they need to clarify that you can burst from stealth to gank someone from which you were hidden and stab them with advantage, because as written it makes stealth a very very minor benefit.
Long Rest I prefer the first UA version of, but I don't care too much bc I'm not strict about Long Rests anyway, you can absolutely sleep for a few hours, spend an hour doing light activity, and then sleep a few more hours, and be fully rested. People are pretty resilient, and I'm just never going to put a bunch of energy into finding every excuse to hinder the PCs.

Tools having a normalized price is hilarious. A basic drum costs the same as bagpipes, huh? No thanks.

Ritual Casting is the best thing in this UA.

Unarmed Strike! The main contender for Ritual Casting's place at the top of the pile. Perfect in every way.
 



doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I agree with your overall point, but this part is not quite accurate: they got the point value right, but the "feel" that accurate Spell Point conversion provided did not provide an adequate Avatar Bender experience.
Well, no, they overvalued the points. It absolutely isn’t just about being an Avatar bender, it’s about the gameplay being bad for several reasons, the most egregious of which is that your abilities all cost 1 more ki per use than any other subclass, which means the subclass effectively subtracts from your power compared to a shadow monk.

Like I said, the math makes sense on a spreadsheet, but the spreadsheet is wrong.

One other way in which they overvalue the abilities is that I guarantee part of why the other subclasses cost spells at 1 ki per spell level, and the 4elements costs them at 1 + Spell level, is that the 4 elements monk has a list of options, and the others gain a predetermined spell at a specific level. Just like how they treat Magic Initiate and Fey Tocuhed as equal in value because Fey Touched is much more limited in scope of options.

The problem is, you don’t get that many disciplines, the list of options isn’t that big, and the total lack of synergy with base class features means that these abilities are at odds with the class rather than purely adding to it.
 

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