D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

[Shardstone]

And that 3rd level subclass thing comes up again. Paladins get their powers from their Oath. Paladins don't take their Oath until level 3. So where did the level 1 and 2 powers come from?

Their faith in their oath grows stronger, and the oath itself holds more meaning by 3rd level. It really isn't that much of a reach.

 

[James Gasik]

would you allow any character, regardless of class, to access rogue sneak attack if there was a sufficiently opportunistic moment? or fighter's second wind if they have enough willpower?

these abilities don't need to be supernatural to still be class exclusive.

Certainly I could see an "Opportunist" Fighting Style that gave 1d6 Sneak Attack not being a problem at all. A Feat that gave Second Wind could exist. I could see a subclass having it.

A Feat that gave Rage 1/day though, while probably ok, feels like it would dilute the Barbarian concept. Fighters and Rogues have more going on with them than Second Wind or Sneak Attack. For the Barbarian, their core features are Rage and Reckless Attack. If anyone could get Rage, it feels like a big chunk of what makes Barbarians special is made, well, mundane, lol.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If the Paladin was still tied to a religion, this would make sense. But while we still have Paladins who devote themselves to a faith, as near as I can tell, they don't need to.

Right, I agree, it doesn't make sense. So that's why in my world I made it so that it makes sense to me.

 

[James Gasik]

Their faith in their oath grows stronger, and the oath itself holds more meaning by 3rd level. It really isn't that much of a reach.

If they had to take an Oath at level 1, absolutely. Except, they don't have to make that choice...

Granted, yes, in one's individual campaign, you can explain it thusly, and in fact, force players to think about their subclass choices at level 1- which really, they should, but since the game doesn't suggest this, it does come off as a bit odd.

 

[CreamCloud0]

And that 3rd level subclass thing comes up again. Paladins get their powers from their Oath. Paladins don't take their Oath until level 3. So where did the level 1 and 2 powers come from?

you still made the oath at level 1 (or maybe zero) it just never started manifesting specific oath effects until 3rd level.

it's not like you question where all the rest of your 4th-20th level base paladin features come from if they're not from your specific oath's vow.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Personally? I'd prefer classes not to have any supernatural abilities unless they're a spell caster. Receive their special supernatural power through the course of play or not at all.

That's fine except we're now in the endgame where 'own a book' and 'be angry' are considered supernatural.

 

[James Gasik]

Right, I agree, it doesn't make sense. So that's why in my world I made it so that it makes sense to me.

Which is how all the weird things that have been brought up in this thread should be treated. We can't expect WotC to do this for us, because again, it would only be true for some characters.

I just think that classes that tie their power source with their subclass choices are weird design, that's all.

 

[FrozenNorth]

There is an explicit agreement for everyone who isn't a fighter or a rogue though.

I don’t think so. Is there explicit agreement that the barbarian’s rage is not mundane? What about the monk’s flurry of blows? The bard’s jack of all trades? The ranger’s terrain expertise?

I think it is more accurate to state that no one cares whether monks, barbarians, rangers, or bards abilities are mundane, extraordinary or supernatural, and very few care about whether a fighter or rogue’s are. Why should WotC waste page count catering to something only matters to a vanishingly few players ?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Which is how all the weird things that have been brought up in this thread should be treated. We can't expect WotC to do this for us, because again, it would only be true for some characters.

Well, sure, but then we wouldn't have a 152 page thread and would actually need to do something productive with our time!

 

[Minigiant]

If the Paladin was still tied to a religion, this would make sense. But while we still have Paladins who devote themselves to a faith, as near as I can tell, they don't need to.

AGAIN!
The drawback of accommodation is inconsistency.
Once you allow for a special case, that special case carves out an inconsistency in the lore or rules.

My solutions to this is... MORE CLASSES!
If I ever hit the lottery, I'm making a fantasy game with 30 base classes in the core book. Thirty!