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D&D General One thing I hate about the Sorcerer

Both in real life and story

A person who trains to fight would beat up quickly a person who is not trained to fight.

A person who dedicates their life to fight will beat up a person who merely trains to fight occasionally.

Logic dictates a person who spends their majority of their day training to fight (an orc berserker) would instantly squish any being that does not train to fight despite their experience level (an apprentice wizard all the way to an Archmage)

But that's not fun.

A device That confounds a master spy or a thieves yield leader would be impossible for a person who has no lock picking or device disabling experience.

But that's not fun.

Mundane characters who are high level would be experts at things that would be impossible for non-specialists to even attempt to succeed with. Everyone else would require a cheat, usually magic, to even attempt or bypass the things that would challenge or be presented by a high level mundane character.
There isn't a lot of actual logic in here. So much as a set of unsupported assertions. Some of which are easily counterable (a common counter to the trained vs. untrained fighter is the trained guy getting beaten by the guy who is untrained but much bigger/stronger)

But in general, it's a bad idea IMO to put much weight on real world expectations when discussing the mechanics of fantasy heroes in fantasy settings.

Note: There also seems to be an essential contention that non-Mundanes could not also be specialists, which seems..weird.
 

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I'm not a "scream bloody murder" person. But I do see their point. Magic (in myth and literature, and movies, etc.) does things and solves things like wall climbing, lock picking etc.

Its magic. Of course the wizard would develop a spell to open locks, or spider climb etc. Why wouldnt they? But that viewpoint is a result of what would happen if magic was real, and we are playing a game where its supossed to be fun for all, no matter what class they chose.

I think its a table thing/style. We dont have fighter valets for the wizard, because they are to busy bashing skulls. We play slightly old school, so the fighter does have their own magic items to help solve things. (/tangent..ahh the glory days when the fighter got boots of flying, had improved invis cast on them, and drank a potion of haste, it was a flying invis helicopter of doom)

Its also weird...wizards can cast wish, but they cant research or create a spell to open locks because...?

BL: I'm not disparaging anyone's view; its a hard thing from both sides, and its been debated for many a year.
I mean the easiest "why wouldn't theys" are danger, difficulty, time, resources required, etc.

The 6-second cast time for spells is not a universal component of magic in myth or literature. Safe magic is not either, nor predictable magic. It also is not universally as powerful as D&D magic can be.

To get to D&D magic, you have to make a wide variety of specifically D&D assumptions, none of which are essential to achieve genre fidelity (and quite a few of which run contrary to a lot of genre presentation of magic)

All that said, I don't need high level mages to be powered down in D&D (though I think there is a case for it). What I need is for folks to realize is that these are fantasy game mechanics justified by arbitrary fantasy setting assumptions. There is no physics modeling or simulation happening here. Hell, there none of those assumptions is really stated any where and there isn't any kind of attempt to justify them.

The same is true of the non-magical classes.

And at that point the solution is simple. Provide high level non-magical PCs with potent abilities with comparable scope and/or impact to what the magic classes are doing.

Note: and because we aren't stating or justifying our fantasy assumptions for magic classes, we likewise do not have to state or justify our fantasy assumptions for.non-magic classes.
 

Regarding magic being too powerful and versatile, whilst I think some spells should be nerfed or outright removed, I believe the main issue is that there are too many spell slots available to mid to high level casters. Balancing factor for magic vs skill, is supposed to be that the latter is always usable but the former consumes a limited resource. But there are so many spell slots that the limit, especially for low level utility spells, in practice doesn't exist.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
There isn't a lot of actual logic in here. So much as a set of unsupported assertions. Some of which are easily counterable (a common counter to the trained vs. untrained fighter is the trained guy getting beaten by the guy who is untrained but much bigger/stronger)

But in general, it's a bad idea IMO to put much weight on real world expectations when discussing the mechanics of fantasy heroes in fantasy settings.

Note: There also seems to be an essential contention that non-Mundanes could not also be specialists, which seems..weird.
That's my point

High level Mundanes working how they do in real life of fictional media would not be fun in a team based game.

There a game must redefine the idea of what mundanes are. And at that point, any issues or limitations are defined by the game's designers and fandom.
 

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
Regarding magic being too powerful and versatile, whilst I think some spells should be nerfed or outright removed, I believe the main issue is that there are too many spell slots available to mid to high level casters. Balancing factor for magic vs skill, is supposed to be that the latter is always usable but the former consumes a limited resource. But there are so many spell slots that the limit, especially for low level utility spells, in practice doesn't exist.
i think it would be better if casters had like a, if casters were built on spell points but they needed to assign those points into slots at a rest before they could use them, vancian spell slot assignment rather than vancian spell assignment, if you put all your points into high level slots that means you're going to have a decent handful of big whammies but only a few low level slots for utility, or sacrifice you higher level casting capability for having lots of low level casting that you can constantly throw around.
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
Is FR the default setting? I thought 5e didn’t have a default setting.
Yes, Forgotten Realms is the default setting. Everything in core is true in the 2014 version of FR, but not necessarily true in other settings.

Meanwhile, specifics like places like Icewind Dale, are Forgotten Realms geography, and persons such as Drizzt, Tasha, Mordenkainen, etcetera as well as specific Human ethnicities and religious traditions, officially exist in the FR setting.
 
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Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
So, does the PHB need to explicitly state that at levels 1-4 rogues and fighters (but not barbarians or monks) are explicitly mundane. And further, that at level 5 (no earlier, no later) rogues and fighters become extraordinary. Also, some subclasses are magical (not extraordinary, at level 3) such as arcane tricksters and eldritch knights. At level 5, I’m not clear what happens: does the arcane trickster become extraordinary, or does it remain magical? Is the arcane trickster’s Evasion ability different from the thief’s? If the arcane trickster’s Evasion ability is magical, why can’t wizards and sorcerers access it?
The short answer is yes.

The longer answer is. The core rules emphasize the default setting assumes that levels 1-4 are Common, and levels 5-8 are Uncommon. These ubiquitous low-tier levels define the medievalesque setting. During these levels, the DM and players can refer to reallife experiences to guesstimate if a certain stunt should work.

Levels 9-12 exist but are Rare. They are anomalies and dont define the setting.

This "middle tier" of 9-12 represents a blurry line that mixes the peak of human possibility and subtle fantasy impossibility. The world record athletes mingle with action movie heroes − and wire-fu. This level is heightened and visually stunning, but still refers to the ordinary world, even if glancing across it impossibly.

During the high-tier levels, 13-16 and 17-20, the limitations of reallife are irrelevant. The constraints and assumptions about "medievalesque" are impossible to sustain under scrutiny. This level of play is the genre of superheroes. Nevertheless, levels 13-16 are Very Rare. There are not enough superheroes to disrupt the economy and ambitions of a medievalesque. While these anomalies exist, they cannot disrupt the overall feel of the default medievalesque setting.

The Legend tier of levels 17-20 are Uniques. Each individual is different. These are Primal beings and Celestial avatars, Archfeys and Archmages and legendary warriors who can singlehandedly defeat arrays of armies. This is the tier of Superman and Storm. Each person is unique.


The Commons and Uncommons are "Ordinary".

The Rares, Very-Rares, and Uniques are "Extraordinary".

Magic perfuses the default setting, but most of it is "Ordinary" magic. Even a Fireball is comparable to a reallife grenade. While magic can and does do weird things, its effects are never of a magnitude that is sufficient to disrupt the medievalesque assumptions. Castle walls work as a defense, at least most of the time. Ordinary magic to bypass a castle wall has limitations of duration, resources, or vulnerabilities. Ordinary people cannot easily bypass a castle wall, including mages.

The Rare and rarer Extraordinary individuals are within the reach of "bounded accuracy", yet function at a magnitude that trivially bypasses the Ordinary world. The Rares inspire fear, respect, and fame. Ordinary people care deeply about what Extraordinary persons do with their powers.



If concluding that some fighter and rogue subclasses are mundane until level 4 and extraordinary afterwards allows you to make sense of the game, have at it. But don’t impose your conceptions on everyone else by saying they should be included in the PHB, particularly when they apply to a subset (2 of 13 classes) of a subset (less than half the subclasses) of a subset (only the races that aren’t innately magical).
So, "mundane" is a less useful term, when most of the world suffuses with magic. Ordinary (normal, typical) is a more helpful term.
 
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Remathilis

Legend
WotC 5e will never be the game you're looking for there. But there are other versions of D&D that have made sone headway in the "what can magic really do?" area. You just have to let the official game go and be creative.
Which? It's not Pathfinder or any prior edition of D&D I know of. I'll admit I don't follow the OSR movement but I'd be interested in hearing how other (non liscenced games like TOR) curbed the wizard down to allow fighters and thieves to breathe.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Which? It's not Pathfinder or any prior edition of D&D I know of. I'll admit I don't follow the OSR movement but I'd be interested in hearing how other (non liscenced games like TOR) curbed the wizard down to allow fighters and thieves to breathe.
DCC, ACKS, and WWN all do it, albeit in different ways. Heck, even Level Up adjusted a number of spells and raised up mundane PCs. Despite its popularity, there are more games that address this issue in some way than those that don't.
 

SkidAce

Legend
Supporter
I think the solution is for the table to come up with
I mean the easiest "why wouldn't theys" are danger, difficulty, time, resources required, etc.

The 6-second cast time for spells is not a universal component of magic in myth or literature. Safe magic is not either, nor predictable magic. It also is not universally as powerful as D&D magic can be.

To get to D&D magic, you have to make a wide variety of specifically D&D assumptions, none of which are essential to achieve genre fidelity (and quite a few of which run contrary to a lot of genre presentation of magic)

All that said, I don't need high level mages to be powered down in D&D (though I think there is a case for it). What I need is for folks to realize is that these are fantasy game mechanics justified by arbitrary fantasy setting assumptions. There is no physics modeling or simulation happening here. Hell, there none of those assumptions is really stated any where and there isn't any kind of attempt to justify them.

The same is true of the non-magical classes.

And at that point the solution is simple. Provide high level non-magical PCs with potent abilities with comparable scope and/or impact to what the magic classes are doing.

Note: and because we aren't stating or justifying our fantasy assumptions for magic classes, we likewise do not have to state or justify our fantasy assumptions for.non-magic classes.
Valid, I've been in D&D mode so long, I forgot part of my own point with literature...magic has a cost, magic is dangerous, etc.
 

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